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Ohio Basketball Recruiting
Topic:  Scenarios

Topic:  Scenarios
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  Scenarios
   Posted: 12/27/2018 11:44:30 AM 
Bored at work today and hard not to think about the future of the program, so I was thinking of what could happen in the next few months.

-----

It's looking more likely that Jordy is done for the year. Which means the remaining scholarship Ohio has for next year's class is going to be saved for him in my non-expert opinion. So he comes back fully healthy, meaning we have a starting lineup of Jordy, Jason, BVP, TK and I'm going to say Preston. Cowart is a great defender and athlete, but he hasn't proved he can score as well as Preston and doesn't have the passing ability either. That's not too bad, virtually the same team this year but adding the dead eye shooting of Jordy which is what the team desperately needs.

Obviously the big question in this scenario and any scenario is losing Doug. BVP and Jason will be fine in the paint, but what about everyone else? Springs is redshirting so we better hope he makes HUGE strides or Ohio is going to be very thin on the front line. And we saw how far that got the Cats last year with Jason and BVP out with injuries. So they would have a crap ton of guards and wings, but very little up front. I'm not counting on Ben Wight to come in here and blow the doors off like Jason and BVP have. I think he's OK and COULD be good further down the line, but it's not like he was a consensus "this guy is gonna be a great one" just looking at him right off the bat.

-----

So the scary part for me is...what if Jordy DOESN'T come back? For whatever reason he decides to retire, transfer, etc. and Ohio is stuck with an open scholarship in the late signing period hoping to hit a home run like Jerome Tillman. Not the most ideal situation. And once again, Ohio would be down one of the program's greatest shooters ever.

-----

And of course this is all dependent on SP still being the coach. If things go awry and he is fired or isn't extended, we could possibly see a mass exodus and doomsday scenario which leads Ohio into a couple years of darkness, depending on the next hire. Some guys will stay like Murrell and Cowart, who probably can't transfer again and expect anything good to come out of it and others who want to finish their degrees. If one or two key pieces stay (JC and BVP) then the blow wouldn't be so bad, but still hard to crawl out of.

-----

It's going to be a very anxious early 2019 for this program. Of course these questions get a lot easier if Ohio makes a run at a MAC title, which isn't out of the realm of possibility, but the odds are against them. All I or we can do is hope for the best and to see some good basketball that leads to more wins than losses.

Happy 2019 everyone!
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 12/27/2018 1:07:19 PM 
Your thoughts on the doomsday scenario lead me down the road of frustration. More and more I feel like the best thing for Ohio to have done for this year was to buyout the last year of Saul's contract and move on back in April. The current situation isn't good at all for recruiting and retention of current players unless a miraculous run happens, or a really good replacement for this coaching staff happens afterward. And honestly, I'm not particularly confident in Schaus' ability to find a coach that can do that. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.

Assuming Saul doesn't return, which is what I'm assuming until shown otherwise, retaining Dartis for year 5, and BVP will be really, really tough in my opinion.

And the issue I see right now is that we need guards. Whether that comes in the form of McDay stepping right in and being effective from the start, Dartis coming back 100%, Gollon being 100%, or Preston getting better in year two, or finding a transfer, I don't know. Until proven otherwise, TK is what he is. He isn't a good PG, and he isn't a particularly good defender. His amount of usage on offense when he's the turnover machine he is is a problematic thing as well. I still think he's well suited to be one of the first two off the bench as instant energy and offense.

The other issue is filling the shoes of Taylor, as we know, who does a lot of the defensive dirty work. As you and I have talked GoCats, the way this team plays without Doug is going to likely change, because we'll essentially be playing two stretch 4's with 3 guards/wings all the time, which isn't a bad thing if the guards also crash the boards. So getting useful minutes from McMurray and Springs next year will be important.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 12/27/2018 2:09:13 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
Your thoughts on the doomsday scenario lead me down the road of frustration. More and more I feel like the best thing for Ohio to have done for this year was to buyout the last year of Saul's contract and move on back in April. The current situation isn't good at all for recruiting and retention of current players unless a miraculous run happens, or a really good replacement for this coaching staff happens afterward. And honestly, I'm not particularly confident in Schaus' ability to find a coach that can do that. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.

Assuming Saul doesn't return, which is what I'm assuming until shown otherwise, retaining Dartis for year 5, and BVP will be really, really tough in my opinion.

And the issue I see right now is that we need guards. Whether that comes in the form of McDay stepping right in and being effective from the start, Dartis coming back 100%, Gollon being 100%, or Preston getting better in year two, or finding a transfer, I don't know. Until proven otherwise, TK is what he is. He isn't a good PG, and he isn't a particularly good defender. His amount of usage on offense when he's the turnover machine he is is a problematic thing as well. I still think he's well suited to be one of the first two off the bench as instant energy and offense.

The other issue is filling the shoes of Taylor, as we know, who does a lot of the defensive dirty work. As you and I have talked GoCats, the way this team plays without Doug is going to likely change, because we'll essentially be playing two stretch 4's with 3 guards/wings all the time, which isn't a bad thing if the guards also crash the boards. So getting useful minutes from McMurray and Springs next year will be important.


Guard wise, all things considered if all stay would have Jordy, Gollon, Preston, TK, Cowart and McDay. I think I can live with that. McDay should be enough there given the opinions I've heard and from what I've seen. And you're right about TK. He is what he is, no matter how many "he's just a sophomore" excuses SP likes to make. If the reins were pulled back on him a bit, this would be a completely different team dynamic.

The only thing I would argue is that I don't really see McMurray as a big. And he's not necessarily a stretch 4 either. He, Murrell and James are solid 3s that could play the 4 if needed. Honestly Murell's guard skills from his younger days as a PG make him more of a 2 than anything. He has some of the best handles on the team for his size.

Either way, I think you, I and others can all agree that if SP is retained, some major work will need to be put in this coming summer. Same goes if SP isn't retained and some of these guys don't jump ship.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 12/27/2018 3:13:43 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
The only thing I would argue is that I don't really see McMurray as a big. And he's not necessarily a stretch 4 either. He, Murrell and James are solid 3s that could play the 4 if needed.


What have these three newcomers - McMurray, Murrell and James - shown you that makes you think they are "solid 3s that could play the 4 if needed"? I guess "solid" is subjective and/or perhaps you and I have different definitions.

Last Edited: 12/27/2018 3:14:53 PM by bobcatsquared
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 12/27/2018 3:24:10 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
Your thoughts on the doomsday scenario lead me down the road of frustration. More and more I feel like the best thing for Ohio to have done for this year was to buyout the last year of Saul's contract and move on back in April. The current situation isn't good at all for recruiting and retention of current players unless a miraculous run happens, or a really good replacement for this coaching staff happens afterward. And honestly, I'm not particularly confident in Schaus' ability to find a coach that can do that. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.

Assuming Saul doesn't return, which is what I'm assuming until shown otherwise, retaining Dartis for year 5, and BVP will be really, really tough in my opinion.

And the issue I see right now is that we need guards. Whether that comes in the form of McDay stepping right in and being effective from the start, Dartis coming back 100%, Gollon being 100%, or Preston getting better in year two, or finding a transfer, I don't know. Until proven otherwise, TK is what he is. He isn't a good PG, and he isn't a particularly good defender. His amount of usage on offense when he's the turnover machine he is is a problematic thing as well. I still think he's well suited to be one of the first two off the bench as instant energy and offense.

The other issue is filling the shoes of Taylor, as we know, who does a lot of the defensive dirty work. As you and I have talked GoCats, the way this team plays without Doug is going to likely change, because we'll essentially be playing two stretch 4's with 3 guards/wings all the time, which isn't a bad thing if the guards also crash the boards. So getting useful minutes from McMurray and Springs next year will be important.

It is not just the lack of talent, it is the coaching. Saul needs to get it together or we need to move on and this oh it’s going to hurt recruiting, what does it matter, anybody can bring in the recruits that he brings in. Carter and BVP are talented but they need to add to their games and Saul has not proved that he can develop players. Win or go home. I hope he wins, change is always tough, but at this point it is necessary.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 12/27/2018 3:29:11 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Your thoughts on the doomsday scenario lead me down the road of frustration. More and more I feel like the best thing for Ohio to have done for this year was to buyout the last year of Saul's contract and move on back in April. The current situation isn't good at all for recruiting and retention of current players unless a miraculous run happens, or a really good replacement for this coaching staff happens afterward. And honestly, I'm not particularly confident in Schaus' ability to find a coach that can do that. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.

Assuming Saul doesn't return, which is what I'm assuming until shown otherwise, retaining Dartis for year 5, and BVP will be really, really tough in my opinion.

And the issue I see right now is that we need guards. Whether that comes in the form of McDay stepping right in and being effective from the start, Dartis coming back 100%, Gollon being 100%, or Preston getting better in year two, or finding a transfer, I don't know. Until proven otherwise, TK is what he is. He isn't a good PG, and he isn't a particularly good defender. His amount of usage on offense when he's the turnover machine he is is a problematic thing as well. I still think he's well suited to be one of the first two off the bench as instant energy and offense.

The other issue is filling the shoes of Taylor, as we know, who does a lot of the defensive dirty work. As you and I have talked GoCats, the way this team plays without Doug is going to likely change, because we'll essentially be playing two stretch 4's with 3 guards/wings all the time, which isn't a bad thing if the guards also crash the boards. So getting useful minutes from McMurray and Springs next year will be important.


Guard wise, all things considered if all stay would have Jordy, Gollon, Preston, TK, Cowart and McDay. I think I can live with that. McDay should be enough there given the opinions I've heard and from what I've seen. And you're right about TK. He is what he is, no matter how many "he's just a sophomore" excuses SP likes to make. If the reins were pulled back on him a bit, this would be a completely different team dynamic.

The only thing I would argue is that I don't really see McMurray as a big. And he's not necessarily a stretch 4 either. He, Murrell and James are solid 3s that could play the 4 if needed. Honestly Murell's guard skills from his younger days as a PG make him more of a 2 than anything. He has some of the best handles on the team for his size.

Either way, I think you, I and others can all agree that if SP is retained, some major work will need to be put in this coming summer. Same goes if SP isn't retained and some of these guys don't jump ship.


Hard to say on McMurray. For whatever reason, I like him and think there's some potential there - at least in the paint and on the glass. I'm not sure about his perimeter shooting yet. I don't really see him as a 3 though as long as he can add some bulk.

If Saul is retained, some of the major work is pulling in those reins, which I honestly can't see happening. Sometimes we saw DJ Cooper or Simmons being given free reign, but they brought a lot more to the team as a whole across all aspects of their game. For me, TK is pretty one dimensional in comparison to those two.
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OU_Country
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   Posted: 12/27/2018 3:32:11 PM 
allen wrote:
It is not just the lack of talent, it is the coaching. Saul needs to get it together or we need to move on and this oh it’s going to hurt recruiting, what does it matter, anybody can bring in the recruits that he brings in. Carter and BVP are talented but they need to add to their games and Saul has not proved that he can develop players. Win or go home. I hope he wins, change is always tough, but at this point it is necessary.


In my opinion, at the guard position, there is a lack of healthy talent right now. On the other hand, the bigs - Carter, Taylor, Vanden Plas, are very talented in my opinion. What exactly would you like to see Jason and Ben add to their games? Right now, to me, they are far and away the best and most complete players on the team.
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allen
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   Posted: 12/27/2018 6:47:09 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
allen wrote:
It is not just the lack of talent, it is the coaching. Saul needs to get it together or we need to move on and this oh it’s going to hurt recruiting, what does it matter, anybody can bring in the recruits that he brings in. Carter and BVP are talented but they need to add to their games and Saul has not proved that he can develop players. Win or go home. I hope he wins, change is always tough, but at this point it is necessary.


In my opinion, at the guard position, there is a lack of healthy talent right now. On the other hand, the bigs - Carter, Taylor, Vanden Plas, are very talented in my opinion. What exactly would you like to see Jason and Ben add to their games? Right now, to me, they are far and away the best and most complete players on the team.


Carter needs to watch some Jeff noordgard film, he can be even better than he was.He needs to have some go to moves, he is very talented, he needs to impose his will on opponents. BVP needs to add the dribble drive and learn to work from baseline to baseline and post smaller defenders. He needs to move without the ball and find spots. I saw the team running some sets where they cut and catch the ball on the high post, and they would catch the ball and pass it instead of turning and facing the defense forcing the zone to collapse onto them which would either free up a perimeter guy or DT down low. These are just some little things, they both have the talent to be all Mac guys. The coaches need to point out certain things to them. Jason carter tried to make some pocket passes at the end of the game when he had a one on one matchup, the coach should be telling him anytime that you have the ball 5-7 feet from the basket and one guy on you, you are our highest percentage option, we need you to be aggressive. Noordgard could help both of them reach their potential.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 12/27/2018 7:19:31 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
GoCats105 wrote:
The only thing I would argue is that I don't really see McMurray as a big. And he's not necessarily a stretch 4 either. He, Murrell and James are solid 3s that could play the 4 if needed.


What have these three newcomers - McMurray, Murrell and James - shown you that makes you think they are "solid 3s that could play the 4 if needed"? I guess "solid" is subjective and/or perhaps you and I have different definitions.


I was using the word "solid" here as in "locked in" for that position as a 3, or they really aren't positioned elsewhere on the floor. We haven't seen enough from them to use the other definition of solid. I cant really see them at anything else other than the 3.

Last Edited: 12/27/2018 7:20:20 PM by GoCats105
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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   Posted: 12/27/2018 8:05:09 PM 
allen wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Your thoughts on the doomsday scenario lead me down the road of frustration. More and more I feel like the best thing for Ohio to have done for this year was to buyout the last year of Saul's contract and move on back in April. The current situation isn't good at all for recruiting and retention of current players unless a miraculous run happens, or a really good replacement for this coaching staff happens afterward. And honestly, I'm not particularly confident in Schaus' ability to find a coach that can do that. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.

Assuming Saul doesn't return, which is what I'm assuming until shown otherwise, retaining Dartis for year 5, and BVP will be really, really tough in my opinion.

And the issue I see right now is that we need guards. Whether that comes in the form of McDay stepping right in and being effective from the start, Dartis coming back 100%, Gollon being 100%, or Preston getting better in year two, or finding a transfer, I don't know. Until proven otherwise, TK is what he is. He isn't a good PG, and he isn't a particularly good defender. His amount of usage on offense when he's the turnover machine he is is a problematic thing as well. I still think he's well suited to be one of the first two off the bench as instant energy and offense.

The other issue is filling the shoes of Taylor, as we know, who does a lot of the defensive dirty work. As you and I have talked GoCats, the way this team plays without Doug is going to likely change, because we'll essentially be playing two stretch 4's with 3 guards/wings all the time, which isn't a bad thing if the guards also crash the boards. So getting useful minutes from McMurray and Springs next year will be important.

It is not just the lack of talent, it is the coaching. Saul needs to get it together or we need to move on and this oh it’s going to hurt recruiting, what does it matter, anybody can bring in the recruits that he brings in. Carter and BVP are talented but they need to add to their games and Saul has not proved that he can develop players. Win or go home. I hope he wins, change is always tough, but at this point it is necessary.


I don't think there is a lack of player development. I think there might just be a lack of 4-year examples, but Doug Taylor and Mike Laster were huge success stories. JG seems to have made big strides with not having played that many games. We have had transfers as featured players a lot lately and I think that it turning around a bit. Dartis has improved but it was hard to tell last year on a bum hip (or 2). When we was feeling good it was amazing how different and diverse his game was (granted, he was good when he arrived). Listen, the results are the results, whether you blame injuries or Saul, I get it, but you can't say players haven't gotten better.
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OU_Country
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   Posted: 12/28/2018 10:56:00 AM 
/\ Good solid thought DFC. /\

I hadn't considered the small sample size of 4 year examples in this way. Taylor and Laster are certainly two who got better over their four years. As much as I like him, Block has had a pretty flat development curve over his four years in my opinion.

Carter has definitely grown his game since his frosh season. As has Jimmy G. Dartis, for me, probably has, but the injury bug makes it hard to say right now.
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allen
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   Posted: 12/28/2018 4:25:13 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
allen wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Your thoughts on the doomsday scenario lead me down the road of frustration. More and more I feel like the best thing for Ohio to have done for this year was to buyout the last year of Saul's contract and move on back in April. The current situation isn't good at all for recruiting and retention of current players unless a miraculous run happens, or a really good replacement for this coaching staff happens afterward. And honestly, I'm not particularly confident in Schaus' ability to find a coach that can do that. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.

Assuming Saul doesn't return, which is what I'm assuming until shown otherwise, retaining Dartis for year 5, and BVP will be really, really tough in my opinion.

And the issue I see right now is that we need guards. Whether that comes in the form of McDay stepping right in and being effective from the start, Dartis coming back 100%, Gollon being 100%, or Preston getting better in year two, or finding a transfer, I don't know. Until proven otherwise, TK is what he is. He isn't a good PG, and he isn't a particularly good defender. His amount of usage on offense when he's the turnover machine he is is a problematic thing as well. I still think he's well suited to be one of the first two off the bench as instant energy and offense.

The other issue is filling the shoes of Taylor, as we know, who does a lot of the defensive dirty work. As you and I have talked GoCats, the way this team plays without Doug is going to likely change, because we'll essentially be playing two stretch 4's with 3 guards/wings all the time, which isn't a bad thing if the guards also crash the boards. So getting useful minutes from McMurray and Springs next year will be important.

It is not just the lack of talent, it is the coaching. Saul needs to get it together or we need to move on and this oh it’s going to hurt recruiting, what does it matter, anybody can bring in the recruits that he brings in. Carter and BVP are talented but they need to add to their games and Saul has not proved that he can develop players. Win or go home. I hope he wins, change is always tough, but at this point it is necessary.


I don't think there is a lack of player development. I think there might just be a lack of 4-year examples, but Doug Taylor and Mike Laster were huge success stories. JG seems to have made big strides with not having played that many games. We have had transfers as featured players a lot lately and I think that it turning around a bit. Dartis has improved but it was hard to tell last year on a bum hip (or 2). When we was feeling good it was amazing how different and diverse his game was (granted, he was good when he arrived). Listen, the results are the results, whether you blame injuries or Saul, I get it, but you can't say players haven't gotten better.



Taylor never picked up an offensive game. Lester improved every year but sat behind players that he was much better than. Dartis didn’t really add to his game. As a senior DT should be a double double MAC guy, he was probably one of Saul’s highest rated recruits, we had five guys transfer that Saul couldn’t do anything with. TK’s jumper, foul shot, and court vision May have regressed. Block has had the opportunity to start for three years and we have seen no improvement beyond the occasional flashes. That being said, JC, Dartis, DT and BVP have turned out to be solid players, we will see if JC and BVP can become special.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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OU_Country
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   Posted: 12/28/2018 4:55:16 PM 
allen wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
allen wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Your thoughts on the doomsday scenario lead me down the road of frustration. More and more I feel like the best thing for Ohio to have done for this year was to buyout the last year of Saul's contract and move on back in April. The current situation isn't good at all for recruiting and retention of current players unless a miraculous run happens, or a really good replacement for this coaching staff happens afterward. And honestly, I'm not particularly confident in Schaus' ability to find a coach that can do that. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.

Assuming Saul doesn't return, which is what I'm assuming until shown otherwise, retaining Dartis for year 5, and BVP will be really, really tough in my opinion.

And the issue I see right now is that we need guards. Whether that comes in the form of McDay stepping right in and being effective from the start, Dartis coming back 100%, Gollon being 100%, or Preston getting better in year two, or finding a transfer, I don't know. Until proven otherwise, TK is what he is. He isn't a good PG, and he isn't a particularly good defender. His amount of usage on offense when he's the turnover machine he is is a problematic thing as well. I still think he's well suited to be one of the first two off the bench as instant energy and offense.

The other issue is filling the shoes of Taylor, as we know, who does a lot of the defensive dirty work. As you and I have talked GoCats, the way this team plays without Doug is going to likely change, because we'll essentially be playing two stretch 4's with 3 guards/wings all the time, which isn't a bad thing if the guards also crash the boards. So getting useful minutes from McMurray and Springs next year will be important.

It is not just the lack of talent, it is the coaching. Saul needs to get it together or we need to move on and this oh it’s going to hurt recruiting, what does it matter, anybody can bring in the recruits that he brings in. Carter and BVP are talented but they need to add to their games and Saul has not proved that he can develop players. Win or go home. I hope he wins, change is always tough, but at this point it is necessary.


I don't think there is a lack of player development. I think there might just be a lack of 4-year examples, but Doug Taylor and Mike Laster were huge success stories. JG seems to have made big strides with not having played that many games. We have had transfers as featured players a lot lately and I think that it turning around a bit. Dartis has improved but it was hard to tell last year on a bum hip (or 2). When we was feeling good it was amazing how different and diverse his game was (granted, he was good when he arrived). Listen, the results are the results, whether you blame injuries or Saul, I get it, but you can't say players haven't gotten better.



Taylor never picked up an offensive game. Lester improved every year but sat behind players that he was much better than. Dartis didn’t really add to his game. As a senior DT should be a double double MAC guy, he was probably one of Saul’s highest rated recruits, we had five guys transfer that Saul couldn’t do anything with. TK’s jumper, foul shot, and court vision May have regressed. Block has had the opportunity to start for three years and we have seen no improvement beyond the occasional flashes. That being said, JC, Dartis, DT and BVP have turned out to be solid players, we will see if JC and BVP can become special.


On Taylor and Dartis specifically, I beg to differ. Jordan went from spot up shooter as a frosh (or at least that was his role), to more than that as a soph, and early in the season last year, especially in Charleston, showed a much more rounded game. Prior to his injury, he was on track to be both the school and conference all-time 3-point maker. Maybe he will still do that, maybe not. He is also currently the all-time Bobcat in 3pt percentage. Sorry, but I'm not buying that Jordan hasn't gotten better.

Taylor, in my opinion, has gotten much better over the last 3 summers. His physical conditioning is drastically different. He is a significant defensive presence, and a really good rebounder, which is probably more important than getting another 2-3 points per game. This year, he isn't scoring as much as he could because he isn't getting as many attempts. That said, I still wouldn't call him an offensive machine, and would like to see him get a few more points in the paint.
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allen
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   Posted: 12/28/2018 6:18:14 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
allen wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
allen wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Your thoughts on the doomsday scenario lead me down the road of frustration. More and more I feel like the best thing for Ohio to have done for this year was to buyout the last year of Saul's contract and move on back in April. The current situation isn't good at all for recruiting and retention of current players unless a miraculous run happens, or a really good replacement for this coaching staff happens afterward. And honestly, I'm not particularly confident in Schaus' ability to find a coach that can do that. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.

Assuming Saul doesn't return, which is what I'm assuming until shown otherwise, retaining Dartis for year 5, and BVP will be really, really tough in my opinion.

And the issue I see right now is that we need guards. Whether that comes in the form of McDay stepping right in and being effective from the start, Dartis coming back 100%, Gollon being 100%, or Preston getting better in year two, or finding a transfer, I don't know. Until proven otherwise, TK is what he is. He isn't a good PG, and he isn't a particularly good defender. His amount of usage on offense when he's the turnover machine he is is a problematic thing as well. I still think he's well suited to be one of the first two off the bench as instant energy and offense.

The other issue is filling the shoes of Taylor, as we know, who does a lot of the defensive dirty work. As you and I have talked GoCats, the way this team plays without Doug is going to likely change, because we'll essentially be playing two stretch 4's with 3 guards/wings all the time, which isn't a bad thing if the guards also crash the boards. So getting useful minutes from McMurray and Springs next year will be important.

It is not just the lack of talent, it is the coaching. Saul needs to get it together or we need to move on and this oh it’s going to hurt recruiting, what does it matter, anybody can bring in the recruits that he brings in. Carter and BVP are talented but they need to add to their games and Saul has not proved that he can develop players. Win or go home. I hope he wins, change is always tough, but at this point it is necessary.


I don't think there is a lack of player development. I think there might just be a lack of 4-year examples, but Doug Taylor and Mike Laster were huge success stories. JG seems to have made big strides with not having played that many games. We have had transfers as featured players a lot lately and I think that it turning around a bit. Dartis has improved but it was hard to tell last year on a bum hip (or 2). When we was feeling good it was amazing how different and diverse his game was (granted, he was good when he arrived). Listen, the results are the results, whether you blame injuries or Saul, I get it, but you can't say players haven't gotten better.



Taylor never picked up an offensive game. Lester improved every year but sat behind players that he was much better than. Dartis didn’t really add to his game. As a senior DT should be a double double MAC guy, he was probably one of Saul’s highest rated recruits, we had five guys transfer that Saul couldn’t do anything with. TK’s jumper, foul shot, and court vision May have regressed. Block has had the opportunity to start for three years and we have seen no improvement beyond the occasional flashes. That being said, JC, Dartis, DT and BVP have turned out to be solid players, we will see if JC and BVP can become special.


On Taylor and Dartis specifically, I beg to differ. Jordan went from spot up shooter as a frosh (or at least that was his role), to more than that as a soph, and early in the season last year, especially in Charleston, showed a much more rounded game. Prior to his injury, he was on track to be both the school and conference all-time 3-point maker. Maybe he will still do that, maybe not. He is also currently the all-time Bobcat in 3pt percentage. Sorry, but I'm not buying that Jordan hasn't gotten better.

Taylor, in my opinion, has gotten much better over the last 3 summers. His physical conditioning is drastically different. He is a significant defensive presence, and a really good rebounder, which is probably more important than getting another 2-3 points per game. This year, he isn't scoring as much as he could because he isn't getting as many attempts. That said, I still wouldn't call him an offensive machine, and would like to see him get a few more points in the paint.


DT’s conditioning improved, but he came in off of a season ending injury which caused him to gain weight, I agree on Dartis a little bit. I think that both could have added more, but DT should be an all defensive MAC selection and Dartis is a premium shooter, let’s hope Dartis gets healthy.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 12/28/2018 8:56:23 PM 
I assume Carter, Dartis, Kirk, and Vander Plas would transfer if Phillips is not retained. And the two recruits signed will get released and re-open their recruitment.



Last Edited: 12/28/2018 8:59:41 PM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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The Better Ohio Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 12/31/2018 3:01:16 PM 
Ohio69 wrote:
I assume Carter, Dartis, Kirk, and Vander Plas would transfer if Phillips is not retained. And the two recruits signed will get released and re-open their recruitment.





I agree on all of them except Dartis.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 12/31/2018 3:03:37 PM 
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
I assume Carter, Dartis, Kirk, and Vander Plas would transfer if Phillips is not retained. And the two recruits signed will get released and re-open their recruitment.


I agree on all of them except Dartis.


Curious why? I actually thought they all would except Carter, who, if I recall, has family ties to OU. That might have some bearing.
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Bobcat1998
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 1/2/2019 12:25:47 PM 
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
I assume Carter, Dartis, Kirk, and Vander Plas would transfer if Phillips is not retained. And the two recruits signed will get released and re-open their recruitment.





I agree on all of them except Dartis.


I could see BVP and Carter sticking around. They are perfect MAC guys.
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bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 1/8/2019 10:48:11 PM 
Bobcat1998 wrote:
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
I assume Carter, Dartis, Kirk, and Vander Plas would transfer if Phillips is not retained. And the two recruits signed will get released and re-open their recruitment.





I agree on all of them except Dartis.


I could see BVP and Carter sticking around. They are perfect MAC guys.


BVP and Carter already red-shirted so they would be giving up a year of eligibility if they transfer. Carter may be able to apply for a 6th year medical redshirt, but that is never a guarantee a we saw with Kenny Kaminski.

Kirk would have to sit out a year but wouldn't lose eligibility. Dartis would be able to play right away so he's probably the most likely to go. I could see a high-major team scooping him up right away to be a 6th man instant offense type.
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Bobcat1998
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 1/9/2019 9:10:12 AM 
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
I assume Carter, Dartis, Kirk, and Vander Plas would transfer if Phillips is not retained. And the two recruits signed will get released and re-open their recruitment.





I agree on all of them except Dartis.


I could see BVP and Carter sticking around. They are perfect MAC guys.


BVP and Carter already red-shirted so they would be giving up a year of eligibility if they transfer. Carter may be able to apply for a 6th year medical redshirt, but that is never a guarantee a we saw with Kenny Kaminski.

Kirk would have to sit out a year but wouldn't lose eligibility. Dartis would be able to play right away so he's probably the most likely to go. I could see a high-major team scooping him up right away to be a 6th man instant offense type.


Would losing any of these guys truly kill our program? The answer is NO. That sums up Saul's recruiting and player development to a "T." I am not worried about anybody transferring. Heck, back when Groce and JC were around I would have been worried to even lose Rico or TJ Hall because they played so hard and were consistent. They weren't even stars. Rico and TJ would be welcomed additions to this team!
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 1/9/2019 10:12:32 AM 
Bobcat1998 wrote:
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
I assume Carter, Dartis, Kirk, and Vander Plas would transfer if Phillips is not retained. And the two recruits signed will get released and re-open their recruitment.





I agree on all of them except Dartis.


I could see BVP and Carter sticking around. They are perfect MAC guys.


BVP and Carter already red-shirted so they would be giving up a year of eligibility if they transfer. Carter may be able to apply for a 6th year medical redshirt, but that is never a guarantee a we saw with Kenny Kaminski.

Kirk would have to sit out a year but wouldn't lose eligibility. Dartis would be able to play right away so he's probably the most likely to go. I could see a high-major team scooping him up right away to be a 6th man instant offense type.


Would losing any of these guys truly kill our program? The answer is NO. That sums up Saul's recruiting and player development to a "T." I am not worried about anybody transferring. Heck, back when Groce and JC were around I would have been worried to even lose Rico or TJ Hall because they played so hard and were consistent. They weren't even stars. Rico and TJ would be welcomed additions to this team!


Since you're Bobcat1998, I'm wondering, have you forgotten about the 1998 MAC season? Because losing literally all of them would make for a record worst season. Careful what ya wish for.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 1/10/2019 10:29:46 AM 
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
I assume Carter, Dartis, Kirk, and Vander Plas would transfer if Phillips is not retained. And the two recruits signed will get released and re-open their recruitment.





I agree on all of them except Dartis.


I could see BVP and Carter sticking around. They are perfect MAC guys.


BVP and Carter already red-shirted so they would be giving up a year of eligibility if they transfer. Carter may be able to apply for a 6th year medical redshirt, but that is never a guarantee a we saw with Kenny Kaminski.

Kirk would have to sit out a year but wouldn't lose eligibility. Dartis would be able to play right away so he's probably the most likely to go. I could see a high-major team scooping him up right away to be a 6th man instant offense type.


Carter has NO basis for a medical, his injury occurred and he had a redshirt, so he still had (has) the opportunity for 4 in 5. Now if he would get hurt again and miss considerable time, that could be a possibility.
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Bobcat1998
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 1/11/2019 12:57:42 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
I assume Carter, Dartis, Kirk, and Vander Plas would transfer if Phillips is not retained. And the two recruits signed will get released and re-open their recruitment.





I agree on all of them except Dartis.


I could see BVP and Carter sticking around. They are perfect MAC guys.


BVP and Carter already red-shirted so they would be giving up a year of eligibility if they transfer. Carter may be able to apply for a 6th year medical redshirt, but that is never a guarantee a we saw with Kenny Kaminski.

Kirk would have to sit out a year but wouldn't lose eligibility. Dartis would be able to play right away so he's probably the most likely to go. I could see a high-major team scooping him up right away to be a 6th man instant offense type.


Would losing any of these guys truly kill our program? The answer is NO. That sums up Saul's recruiting and player development to a "T." I am not worried about anybody transferring. Heck, back when Groce and JC were around I would have been worried to even lose Rico or TJ Hall because they played so hard and were consistent. They weren't even stars. Rico and TJ would be welcomed additions to this team!


Since you're Bobcat1998, I'm wondering, have you forgotten about the 1998 MAC season? Because losing literally all of them would make for a record worst season. Careful what ya wish for.


It's a very good point that I can't argue with. I was just saying that I would take a complete re-boot if necessary to get the stink of the past 5 years (combined) off. And in reality I don't believe it would be a mass exodus. Depending on the new guy we have players who seem to truly love OU. Carter, BVP, Gollon, Preston -- they seem to be having fun.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 1/11/2019 2:05:51 PM 
Two things I see - first and foremost, the "stink" of the last five years has really been the stink of the last two years. I refuse to accept the notion that entirety of the Saul era has been bad, because it has not. Or course 3/5 of it has, which is why these conversations are being had to begin with.

Second, it's impossible to predict what will happen with the next coach, but one thing is certain: Every single player will reconsider whether they're going to stay. A few of them are good enough to take a step up if they want. Others might go closer to home, or just not like the new staff. But I can almost guarantee that everyone that isn't graduating, and the 2-3 new recruits are going to consider their options. And they should. Which is why I hope whoever the next guy is, he's really, really good at selling his program. If he can keep McDay, and 5-6 of the current roster, at least there's a starting point. Add a couple JUCO players, or a grad transfer, and at least there's a roster to compete with. Remember Groce's first year when Tommy is playing the 4 sometimes because there were injuries/suspensions and only 10 scholarship players? That's what I'm hoping the next coach avoids. Time will tell.
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: Scenarios
   Posted: 1/11/2019 6:54:06 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
Two things I see - first and foremost, the "stink" of the last five years has really been the stink of the last two years. I refuse to accept the notion that entirety of the Saul era has been bad, because it has not. Or course 3/5 of it has, which is why these conversations are being had to begin with.

Second, it's impossible to predict what will happen with the next coach, but one thing is certain: Every single player will reconsider whether they're going to stay. A few of them are good enough to take a step up if they want. Others might go closer to home, or just not like the new staff. But I can almost guarantee that everyone that isn't graduating, and the 2-3 new recruits are going to consider their options. And they should. Which is why I hope whoever the next guy is, he's really, really good at selling his program. If he can keep McDay, and 5-6 of the current roster, at least there's a starting point. Add a couple JUCO players, or a grad transfer, and at least there's a roster to compete with. Remember Groce's first year when Tommy is playing the 4 sometimes because there were injuries/suspensions and only 10 scholarship players? That's what I'm hoping the next coach avoids. Time will tell.

It hasn’t been all stinky, there have been a few good moments and a few descents stretches, but no real stability. We faked being invited and rejecting a cbi invite, when we had former conference players on the selection committee. I don’t think that we have had three wins in Cleveland after inheriting two nba talents. We have been a top 200-250 program after being given tc and Jaaron. Saul's best recruit (Ryan Taylor) transferred out.

Last Edited: 1/12/2019 3:36:51 AM by allen

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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