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Topic:  We Need to Follow Texas's Lead

Topic:  We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/1/2021 6:07:11 PM 
https://jeffreyfitzwater.medium.com/my-alma-mater-is-foun...

I share this in the full acknowledgement I am very much an outsider and an amateur, and I have no doubt this will be poorly received by those more in the know.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/1/2021 7:16:07 PM 
I don't agree with everything in the article. For one thing, these percent rules seem to only work with big AAU flagships like Texas and the University of California system (which has been doing it for far longer than Texas), and I don't know if it would translate for Ohio. Not saying it wouldn't, but I'd need to see it really fleshed out more.

That being said, I have long advocated on here that Ohio should seriously focus on attracting the highest ability students that OSU is sending off to their branch campuses for a year or two.

I'd also like to see Ohio come up with some form of tuition-free guarantee. Maybe not for the whole state like OSU and Michigan did, but at least for SE Ohio. Freaking basket case Akron just did it for the counties surrounding Akron. If they can do it, there's no reason that Ohio can't find the money.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/1/2021 9:39:02 PM 
I'm afraid that the direction OU is going is to continue watering down admissions requirements even more than they already have. I agree that is problematic, but that is what they are going to do to address the enrollment decline.

The plus side of OU right now is the professional schools, which continue to do well...Russ Engineering, Voinovich School of Leadership and Public Affairs, Heritage Medical School, and others. Is OU planning to leverage their reputation on these schools and tolerate the ranking decline that comes from watering down undergraduate admissions standards?

It's a tough situation made many times worse by COVID.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/2/2021 10:53:00 AM 
Jeff McKinney wrote:
I'm afraid that the direction OU is going is to continue watering down admissions requirements even more than they already have. I agree that is problematic, but that is what they are going to do to address the enrollment decline.

The plus side of OU right now is the professional schools, which continue to do well...Russ Engineering, Voinovich School of Leadership and Public Affairs, Heritage Medical School, and others. Is OU planning to leverage their reputation on these schools and tolerate the ranking decline that comes from watering down undergraduate admissions standards?

It's a tough situation made many times worse by COVID.


If you remember Jeff, when you enrolled, all you needed was a diploma from any accredited high school in Ohio. That said, I was a panelist on a call with OU middle education majors earlier this week and we briefly hit on this topic relative to another discussion topic. Sadly, we have so over-creditentialed so many jobs that everyone is hearing the message that you need a college degree which too often leads to gradates with neither the skills or knowledge to land a job that will allow them to crawl out of the mountain of debt that they have accumulated having the college experience.
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akroncat
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/2/2021 10:57:14 AM 
You need to read about the Akron offer on tuition. It is not exactly as advertised. They will pay what is left on your tuition after all other moneys. This includes Pell grants and any scholarships. They estimated this to be $3000 on the average.

Yes it is real money, but not like they are paying the full tuition for the people in the surrounding six counties.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/2/2021 11:31:52 AM 
It seems odd that the author bemoaned Ohio lowering its admission standards but then suggested automatic admission for anyone in the top 25% of their high school class. He doesn't say what percentage of current students graduated outside the top 25%, so we don't know what effect this might have on admissions. Class rank is only one of five criteria for freshman admissions and the average is stated as "top 12-38% of high school graduating class", whatever that means. Still, 25% w/o an application seems like a low threshold if you're trying to improve the quality of students.

Making it easier for more students to be accepted is needed, but the school is still competing with others for students so improvement in quality (or at least perceived quality) of programs is needed. Ohio was really my only choice because it had one of the best broadcasting programs in the nation and it was the closest to home. From the article, it sounds like Ohio is being run a lot like a lot of major corporations -- throw more money into management and less into the product line. If that's the case, this should change.

Like most universities, Ohio has largely thrived through out-of-state tuition, which is about $10,000 a year a more per student than in-state tuition. A big chunk of that comes from foreign students, who by and large haven't been on campus for more than a year, and might not be for another year or so until the covid situation improves overseas. And until the U.S. travel warnings are lifted for Asians, all U.S. colleges are likely to see fewer Asian students on campus (even post-covid), which means fewer dollars for the university and the Athens community. Plus, there will be more competition for those foreign students who do come into the U.S. Ohio needs to give out-of-state and foreign students more reason to come here than to go somewhere else.

Last Edited: 4/2/2021 11:34:08 AM by Pataskala

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/2/2021 1:10:50 PM 
akroncat wrote:
You need to read about the Akron offer on tuition. It is not exactly as advertised. They will pay what is left on your tuition after all other moneys. This includes Pell grants and any scholarships. They estimated this to be $3000 on the average.

Yes it is real money, but not like they are paying the full tuition for the people in the surrounding six counties.


I was aware of that. That's really no different than what OSU and Michigan did. It does guarantee that lower income students won't be taking any loans out for tuition, though they still might have to for room & board. It's not the U of Chicago plan (full tuition, room & board and books paid for Pell Grant eligible students), but it's not nothing either.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/2/2021 1:18:10 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
It seems odd that the author bemoaned Ohio lowering its admission standards but then suggested automatic admission for anyone in the top 25% of their high school class. He doesn't say what percentage of current students graduated outside the top 25%, so we don't know what effect this might have on admissions. Class rank is only one of five criteria for freshman admissions and the average is stated as "top 12-38% of high school graduating class", whatever that means. Still, 25% w/o an application seems like a low threshold if you're trying to improve the quality of students.

Making it easier for more students to be accepted is needed, but the school is still competing with others for students so improvement in quality (or at least perceived quality) of programs is needed. Ohio was really my only choice because it had one of the best broadcasting programs in the nation and it was the closest to home. From the article, it sounds like Ohio is being run a lot like a lot of major corporations -- throw more money into management and less into the product line. If that's the case, this should change.

Like most universities, Ohio has largely thrived through out-of-state tuition, which is about $10,000 a year a more per student than in-state tuition. A big chunk of that comes from foreign students, who by and large haven't been on campus for more than a year, and might not be for another year or so until the covid situation improves overseas. And until the U.S. travel warnings are lifted for Asians, all U.S. colleges are likely to see fewer Asian students on campus (even post-covid), which means fewer dollars for the university and the Athens community. Plus, there will be more competition for those foreign students who do come into the U.S. Ohio needs to give out-of-state and foreign students more reason to come here than to go somewhere else.


Per our latest common data set, 49% of Ohio freshmen graduated in the top quarter of their high school class, so I don't think it would necessarily drop our standards too much if at all.

OSU was 90%. Miami was 62% Cincinnati was 46%.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/2/2021 3:01:26 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Pataskala wrote:
It seems odd that the author bemoaned Ohio lowering its admission standards but then suggested automatic admission for anyone in the top 25% of their high school class. He doesn't say what percentage of current students graduated outside the top 25%, so we don't know what effect this might have on admissions. Class rank is only one of five criteria for freshman admissions and the average is stated as "top 12-38% of high school graduating class", whatever that means. Still, 25% w/o an application seems like a low threshold if you're trying to improve the quality of students.

Making it easier for more students to be accepted is needed, but the school is still competing with others for students so improvement in quality (or at least perceived quality) of programs is needed. Ohio was really my only choice because it had one of the best broadcasting programs in the nation and it was the closest to home. From the article, it sounds like Ohio is being run a lot like a lot of major corporations -- throw more money into management and less into the product line. If that's the case, this should change.

Like most universities, Ohio has largely thrived through out-of-state tuition, which is about $10,000 a year a more per student than in-state tuition. A big chunk of that comes from foreign students, who by and large haven't been on campus for more than a year, and might not be for another year or so until the covid situation improves overseas. And until the U.S. travel warnings are lifted for Asians, all U.S. colleges are likely to see fewer Asian students on campus (even post-covid), which means fewer dollars for the university and the Athens community. Plus, there will be more competition for those foreign students who do come into the U.S. Ohio needs to give out-of-state and foreign students more reason to come here than to go somewhere else.


Per our latest common data set, 49% of Ohio freshmen graduated in the top quarter of their high school class, so I don't think it would necessarily drop our standards too much if at all.

OSU was 90%. Miami was 62% Cincinnati was 46%.


That 49% is virtually meaningless without knowing from what schools those kids graduated. Top 25% at Granville or Bexley is one thing. Top 25% of the 600th ranked high school in Ohio not so much.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/3/2021 8:04:50 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Pataskala wrote:
It seems odd that the author bemoaned Ohio lowering its admission standards but then suggested automatic admission for anyone in the top 25% of their high school class. He doesn't say what percentage of current students graduated outside the top 25%, so we don't know what effect this might have on admissions. Class rank is only one of five criteria for freshman admissions and the average is stated as "top 12-38% of high school graduating class", whatever that means. Still, 25% w/o an application seems like a low threshold if you're trying to improve the quality of students.

Making it easier for more students to be accepted is needed, but the school is still competing with others for students so improvement in quality (or at least perceived quality) of programs is needed. Ohio was really my only choice because it had one of the best broadcasting programs in the nation and it was the closest to home. From the article, it sounds like Ohio is being run a lot like a lot of major corporations -- throw more money into management and less into the product line. If that's the case, this should change.

Like most universities, Ohio has largely thrived through out-of-state tuition, which is about $10,000 a year a more per student than in-state tuition. A big chunk of that comes from foreign students, who by and large haven't been on campus for more than a year, and might not be for another year or so until the covid situation improves overseas. And until the U.S. travel warnings are lifted for Asians, all U.S. colleges are likely to see fewer Asian students on campus (even post-covid), which means fewer dollars for the university and the Athens community. Plus, there will be more competition for those foreign students who do come into the U.S. Ohio needs to give out-of-state and foreign students more reason to come here than to go somewhere else.


Per our latest common data set, 49% of Ohio freshmen graduated in the top quarter of their high school class, so I don't think it would necessarily drop our standards too much if at all.

OSU was 90%. Miami was 62% Cincinnati was 46%.


That 49% is virtually meaningless without knowing from what schools those kids graduated. Top 25% at Granville or Bexley is one thing. Top 25% of the 600th ranked high school in Ohio not so much.



My wife says, Alan, she'll now forgive your recent grammar lapse, since you gave a shoutout to her alma mater -- Bexley. She says she was "easily in the top 10 percent."

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/5/2021 5:36:49 PM 
The main reason OU has dropped in the USWNR rankings is they've allowed many more schools to be eligible for the national rankings.

The SAT/ACT requirement was waived this year to the OP liking. Will it help to attract more students I don't know.

Decision makers at OU pushed enrollment as far as it could go as it was incentivized by state funding, first by a funding model which was tied to square footage on campus and then one incentivizing in-state student degrees completed.

Smaller schools in Ohio would envy what OU has been able to do with its campus improvements and STEM transformation. Like them OU has a ceiling. Universities don't have the cost model to afford more distinguished faculty.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/5/2021 9:40:22 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
The main reason OU has dropped in the USWNR rankings is they've allowed many more schools to be eligible for the national rankings.

The SAT/ACT requirement was waived this year to the OP liking. Will it help to attract more students I don't know.

Decision makers at OU pushed enrollment as far as it could go as it was incentivized by state funding, first by a funding model which was tied to square footage on campus and then one incentivizing in-state student degrees completed.

Smaller schools in Ohio would envy what OU has been able to do with its campus improvements and STEM transformation. Like them OU has a ceiling. Universities don't have the cost model to afford more distinguished faculty.


AAU designation is huge when it comes to faculty recruitment. Either you're in that club, or you're not. The only exception is elite, private liberal arts colleges.
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/5/2021 10:55:42 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
The main reason OU has dropped in the USWNR rankings is they've allowed many more schools to be eligible for the national rankings.

The SAT/ACT requirement was waived this year to the OP liking. Will it help to attract more students I don't know.

Decision makers at OU pushed enrollment as far as it could go as it was incentivized by state funding, first by a funding model which was tied to square footage on campus and then one incentivizing in-state student degrees completed.

Smaller schools in Ohio would envy what OU has been able to do with its campus improvements and STEM transformation. Like them OU has a ceiling. Universities don't have the cost model to afford more distinguished faculty.


AAU designation is huge when it comes to faculty recruitment. Either you're in that club, or you're not. The only exception is elite, private liberal arts colleges.


Yes and even a $50 million dollar increase in federal research grants while very good for the university is not going to change the equation. It would have to be a $250 million dollar increase to be significant and that is beyond what our faculty has the capacity to do.

When OU redesigned the faculty pay scale the idea was to stay within the top 3 (meaning close to UC) with the idea of competing with OSU was a lot cause. To pay the research faculty a competitive salary it requires more adjunct faculty to balance out the pay structure.

40 years ago a college could turn its fortune around with a great sales job to incoming students. Best hope now is a fundamental change in how higher ed is structured, such as free community college hurting urban 4 year colleges and tilting it back to the college towns.

Journalism as a field has taken a hit nationally and that has hurt OU. Miami is propped up entirely on its business college and if that was to go out of vouge would hurt. I thought OU was trying to load up on administrators in liberal fields to promote a more diverse environment. Traditionally OU from my experience been a more of a work hard/play hard culture over liberal arts self expression.

Honestly with students paying so much the better amenities might be the way to go to be more competitive with Miami and the private colleges than an average state school product. If they want OSU with its city school environment and can't get in they'll look at UC or Akron. One aspect that helps OU is that its so different from what OSU offers that it can attract a different market segment.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/8/2021 6:25:48 PM 
OUPride wrote:
I don't agree with everything in the article. For one thing, these percent rules seem to only work with big AAU flagships like Texas and the University of California system (which has been doing it for far longer than Texas), and I don't know if it would translate for Ohio. Not saying it wouldn't, but I'd need to see it really fleshed out more.


You're infinitely more knowledgable on this than I. I wish I could provide said flesh.

Quote:
That being said, I have long advocated on here that Ohio should seriously focus on attracting the highest ability students that OSU is sending off to their branch campuses for a year or two.


Shamelessly stolen from you.

JM wrote:
I'm afraid that the direction OU is going is to continue watering down admissions requirements even more than they already have. I agree that is problematic, but that is what they are going to do to address the enrollment decline.


It feels like a death spiral.

Quote:
The plus side of OU right now is the professional schools, which continue to do well...Russ Engineering, Voinovich School of Leadership and Public Affairs, Heritage Medical School, and others. Is OU planning to leverage their reputation on these schools and tolerate the ranking decline that comes from watering down undergraduate admissions standards?


Masters programs are a different beast and I set those aside in my piece. Russ falls into the "good, not great" category. Not sure how much burnishing that does. OUCOM is good in terms of Osteopathy, but a DO does not command the respect of a MD, right or wrong.

Quote:
It seems odd that the author bemoaned Ohio lowering its admission standards but then suggested automatic admission for anyone in the top 25% of their high school class. He doesn't say what percentage of current students graduated outside the top 25%, so we don't know what effect this might have on admissions. Class rank is only one of five criteria for freshman admissions and the average is stated as "top 12-38% of high school graduating class", whatever that means. Still, 25% w/o an application seems like a low threshold if you're trying to improve the quality of students.


I didn't want to get granular with the numbers purposely. 25% is just a round number that is easy to understand. If you want to move that to like 20% or something, that's fine. Given that range, five bucks says the majority are closer to 38 than 12.

Quote:
That 49% is virtually meaningless without knowing from what schools those kids graduated. Top 25% at Granville or Bexley is one thing. Top 25% of the 600th ranked high school in Ohio not so much.


Depends on what you mean. We've got to stop punishing kids for circumstances beyond their control. In raw academic achievement, yes, the top 25% from Granville is going to best the top 25% from Vinton, but it doesn't make them a better caliber of student. They were equal in achievement given the opportunities offered.

Quote:
The main reason OU has dropped in the USWNR rankings is they've allowed many more schools to be eligible for the national rankings.


I did not know that, thank you.

Quote:
The SAT/ACT requirement was waived this year to the OP liking. Will it help to attract more students I don't know.


So far as I know, that's a temporary decision given the pandemic. It should be made permanent.

Quote:
AAU designation is huge when it comes to faculty recruitment. Either you're in that club, or you're not. The only exception is elite, private liberal arts colleges.


We're not going to be AAU any time soon. Would the best (or positive) strategy be to identify young talent and develop them in-house? Many would leave, but some would stay.

Quote:
Honestly with students paying so much the better amenities might be the way to go to be more competitive with Miami and the private colleges than an average state school product. If they want OSU with its city school environment and can't get in they'll look at UC or Akron. One aspect that helps OU is that its so different from what OSU offers that it can attract a different market segment.


I worry all the Glidden construction projects are a millstone on the budget.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/8/2021 8:22:05 PM 
Good read.

My favorite line:
Quote:
The OU staff directory is awash with Vice Presidents of this and that. It is top-heavy and bloated in all the worst places. It makes me think of a precarious Jenga tower.

Wildly accurate. The bloated bureaucracy at Ohio University is EASILY the biggest problem. The vast majority of these losers jobs could be automated.

I disagree with you, philosophically, that the aim of Ohio University should be post-secondary success. In my opinion, the goal of college should be to educate students for success in the rest of their life. I do not necessarily mean professional success, I mean life success.

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 8:46:42 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
Good read.

My favorite line:
Quote:
The OU staff directory is awash with Vice Presidents of this and that. It is top-heavy and bloated in all the worst places. It makes me think of a precarious Jenga tower.

Wildly accurate. The bloated bureaucracy at Ohio University is EASILY the biggest problem. The vast majority of these losers jobs could be automated.

I disagree with you, philosophically, that the aim of Ohio University should be post-secondary success. In my opinion, the goal of college should be to educate students for success in the rest of their life. I do not necessarily mean professional success, I mean life success.


I see this sentiment a lot here. It may be right -- I'm not really in a position to know. But what I never see are any specifics. I see a general belief that there's a bloated, overpaid administration. But it's hard to take action on this without specific examples of specific departments and roles that are unnecessary or underperforming.

Ohio University's annual operating budget approaches a billion dollars. That necessitate administration (lower case a). What jobs can actually be automated and add nothing to the 'bottom line'?

I'll grant you that when I look at the salary guide the most egregious issue is that our two highest paid employees (and 4 of our top 20 highest paid employees) are in the athletic department. We lose money on athletics. What are the other areas?

Edit: to add some further data, if I look at the top 100 highest paid employees at OU, I count 11 administrators and four in athletics. The administrators are in roles like VP of Legal Affairs, Facilities Management, Director of Investment, CIO, VP of Marketing, COO, Chief of Staff, Real Estate lead. Unless I'm missing something, academics make up the vast majority of our highest paid employees and the administrators at the top of the list seem to be in pretty critical functions for a billion dollar operation.



Salary guide for reference: (https://projects.thepostathens.com/SpecialProjects/ohio-u... / the most egregiously out of place

Last Edited: 4/9/2021 9:00:57 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 9:55:59 AM 
The spending on coaches is now in line with expectations for competing in a Top 10 Division 1 conference. Its not on the level of P5 but its a significant step up from lower tier conferences (which is the entire point of doing it).

There is a built in factor to pursuing a career in a STEM field is to begin on that journey there has to be a sense that you'll succeed, that you have the preparation to give it a chance. How did you do in the HS courses? Where you in a gifted program and honors classes in HS? This applies to other academic areas foreign languages being one them.

A segment of students didn't work up to their potential in HS. Ended up with a B average on 4 years of STEM, foreign languages and AP courses. That is where a place like OU offers them the opportunity to complete a challenging program leading to a career in that field.

For the students that had a HS program where it was basically 8th grade level for 4 years but they they finished in the top 25% of their class they are probably not going to pick rocket science as a field of study. They'll instead go to a local college and try to pick up a general degree. The branch campus kids fall into that category.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 11:21:24 AM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
The spending on coaches is now in line with expectations for competing in a Top 10 Division 1 conference. Its not on the level of P5 but its a significant step up from lower tier conferences (which is the entire point of doing it).


Because schools in other conferences pay coaches at a certain level does not make it a wise decision. What's the point of paying better than a lower tier conference if the economics are still aligned with lower tier conferences?

Part of my point here is that many of the same people insistent we're over-paying administrators defend the money going into athletics by benchmarking them against peers. But if you benchmark our admin spending against peers, there seems to be little difference.

So why is one acceptable and the other a waste of resources that's not aligned with our mission?

It feels like the 'bloated admin' is a talking point, but I haven't seen much depth to it. Would be happy to be proven wrong here if somebody has data to share. But I have a lot of trouble understanding how athletic spending's a justifiable cost, but the Finance team or Marketing team is not.

Last Edited: 4/9/2021 11:29:49 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 1:16:34 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
The spending on coaches is now in line with expectations for competing in a Top 10 Division 1 conference. Its not on the level of P5 but its a significant step up from lower tier conferences (which is the entire point of doing it).


Because schools in other conferences pay coaches at a certain level does not make it a wise decision. What's the point of paying better than a lower tier conference if the economics are still aligned with lower tier conferences?

Part of my point here is that many of the same people insistent we're over-paying administrators defend the money going into athletics by benchmarking them against peers. But if you benchmark our admin spending against peers, there seems to be little difference.

So why is one acceptable and the other a waste of resources that's not aligned with our mission?

It feels like the 'bloated admin' is a talking point, but I haven't seen much depth to it. Would be happy to be proven wrong here if somebody has data to share. But I have a lot of trouble understanding how athletic spending's a justifiable cost, but the Finance team or Marketing team is not.


Being an effective coach takes experience. When you pay 2x than the FCS conferences like OU is doing it gives you the experience edge which in some cases also tied to recruiting networks. You're not just paying more but you are getting a higher caliber staff.

Resources in the MAC are higher than at FCS leagues. Budgets are bigger and facilities are better as a whole. While its not a 10x differential from the economics of the lower leagues its more TV revenue (MAC ranks 9th in this category after the MWC), marketing deals are larger ect.

With the administrators there were 94 cut in one move in May of 2020. By no means are they immune to the downsizing.

https://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Ohio-University-says-it...

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Mike Johnson
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Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
Post Count: 1,729

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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 1:55:13 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Good read.

My favorite line:
Quote:
The OU staff directory is awash with Vice Presidents of this and that. It is top-heavy and bloated in all the worst places. It makes me think of a precarious Jenga tower.

Wildly accurate. The bloated bureaucracy at Ohio University is EASILY the biggest problem. The vast majority of these losers jobs could be automated.

I disagree with you, philosophically, that the aim of Ohio University should be post-secondary success. In my opinion, the goal of college should be to educate students for success in the rest of their life. I do not necessarily mean professional success, I mean life success.


I see this sentiment a lot here. It may be right -- I'm not really in a position to know. But what I never see are any specifics. I see a general belief that there's a bloated, overpaid administration. But it's hard to take action on this without specific examples of specific departments and roles that are unnecessary or underperforming.

Ohio University's annual operating budget approaches a billion dollars. That necessitate administration (lower case a). What jobs can actually be automated and add nothing to the 'bottom line'?

I'll grant you that when I look at the salary guide the most egregious issue is that our two highest paid employees (and 4 of our top 20 highest paid employees) are in the athletic department. We lose money on athletics. What are the other areas?

Edit: to add some further data, if I look at the top 100 highest paid employees at OU, I count 11 administrators and four in athletics. The administrators are in roles like VP of Legal Affairs, Facilities Management, Director of Investment, CIO, VP of Marketing, COO, Chief of Staff, Real Estate lead. Unless I'm missing something, academics make up the vast majority of our highest paid employees and the administrators at the top of the list seem to be in pretty critical functions for a billion dollar operation.



Salary guide for reference: (https://projects.thepostathens.com/SpecialProjects/ohio-u... / the most egregiously out of place


Like you, I am not intimately knowledgeable of the administration's organization. That said, here is one thing I've wondered about: to wit, does each of the university's colleges - and perhaps some of its schools - have its own advancement/development staff? If that's the case, my experience in large corps suggests that some consolidation might not only trim costs but increase effectiveness.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Post Count: 3,593

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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 1:59:05 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
The spending on coaches is now in line with expectations for competing in a Top 10 Division 1 conference. Its not on the level of P5 but its a significant step up from lower tier conferences (which is the entire point of doing it).


Because schools in other conferences pay coaches at a certain level does not make it a wise decision. What's the point of paying better than a lower tier conference if the economics are still aligned with lower tier conferences?

Part of my point here is that many of the same people insistent we're over-paying administrators defend the money going into athletics by benchmarking them against peers. But if you benchmark our admin spending against peers, there seems to be little difference.

So why is one acceptable and the other a waste of resources that's not aligned with our mission?

It feels like the 'bloated admin' is a talking point, but I haven't seen much depth to it. Would be happy to be proven wrong here if somebody has data to share. But I have a lot of trouble understanding how athletic spending's a justifiable cost, but the Finance team or Marketing team is not.


Being an effective coach takes experience. When you pay 2x than the FCS conferences like OU is doing it gives you the experience edge which in some cases also tied to recruiting networks. You're not just paying more but you are getting a higher caliber staff.

Resources in the MAC are higher than at FCS leagues. Budgets are bigger and facilities are better as a whole. While its not a 10x differential from the economics of the lower leagues its more TV revenue (MAC ranks 9th in this category after the MWC), marketing deals are larger ect.

With the administrators there were 94 cut in one move in May of 2020. By no means are they immune to the downsizing.

https://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Ohio-University-says-it...


I'm not sure I understand how this addresses my point. I fully understand how markets work, and that paying more for a coach gets you a better coach. In fact, I'm applying that exact logic to administrators. Paying better gets you better administrators.

What I'm questioning is why it seems generally accepted that administrative bloat's a problem at OU, but that the same people find it justified that our two highest paid employees oversee money-losing athletic programs.
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TWT
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,083

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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 2:10:02 PM 
JSF wrote:

Quote:
Honestly with students paying so much the better amenities might be the way to go to be more competitive with Miami and the private colleges than an average state school product. If they want OSU with its city school environment and can't get in they'll look at UC or Akron. One aspect that helps OU is that its so different from what OSU offers that it can attract a different market segment.


I worry all the Glidden construction projects are a millstone on the budget.


The state was incentivizing that because at the time OSU had a low graduation rate and by setting a component of the state university allocation to be based on sq. feet the larger your university the more funds.

Construction dollars flowing supports the local economy. For this reason I don't see the spicket turned off like from 1975-1995 when only a handful of projects were completed. Projects in construction are proceeding. Eventually the enrollment slide is going to bottom out and stabilize (how low it will go remains to be seen).

Enrollment was down to 17,141 for fall of 2020. Undergraduate 14,925 according to the fact book.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/student/quartenroll/QUARTENR...

There are projections that undergraduate is going to dip as low as 12,500 over the next few years. If the undergraduate numbers come back at 15,000 or 16,000 then all of the sudden its a surplus against a reduced budget.

https://woub.org/2021/04/07/ohio-university-enrollment-on... /

Solution to me seems to aim for a lower target enrollment and attract students by having a lower student to faculty ratio. Raise the sticker price to the level of Miami and invest more in the student experience. Set the target for undergraduate 13,500 with allowances for bigger classes from time to time.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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TWT
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,083

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 2:17:38 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
The spending on coaches is now in line with expectations for competing in a Top 10 Division 1 conference. Its not on the level of P5 but its a significant step up from lower tier conferences (which is the entire point of doing it).


Because schools in other conferences pay coaches at a certain level does not make it a wise decision. What's the point of paying better than a lower tier conference if the economics are still aligned with lower tier conferences?

Part of my point here is that many of the same people insistent we're over-paying administrators defend the money going into athletics by benchmarking them against peers. But if you benchmark our admin spending against peers, there seems to be little difference.

So why is one acceptable and the other a waste of resources that's not aligned with our mission?

It feels like the 'bloated admin' is a talking point, but I haven't seen much depth to it. Would be happy to be proven wrong here if somebody has data to share. But I have a lot of trouble understanding how athletic spending's a justifiable cost, but the Finance team or Marketing team is not.


Being an effective coach takes experience. When you pay 2x than the FCS conferences like OU is doing it gives you the experience edge which in some cases also tied to recruiting networks. You're not just paying more but you are getting a higher caliber staff.

Resources in the MAC are higher than at FCS leagues. Budgets are bigger and facilities are better as a whole. While its not a 10x differential from the economics of the lower leagues its more TV revenue (MAC ranks 9th in this category after the MWC), marketing deals are larger ect.

With the administrators there were 94 cut in one move in May of 2020. By no means are they immune to the downsizing.

https://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Ohio-University-says-it...


I'm not sure I understand how this addresses my point. I fully understand how markets work, and that paying more for a coach gets you a better coach. In fact, I'm applying that exact logic to administrators. Paying better gets you better administrators.

What I'm questioning is why it seems generally accepted that administrative bloat's a problem at OU, but that the same people find it justified that our two highest paid employees oversee money-losing athletic programs.


I don't espouse the viewpoint on the administrators being the sole problem. I believe that began with Alan Swank who cringed at the salaries of the new administrators and then more fans here picked up on it.

We aren't talking just a few administrators but hundreds of them which is different than pointing at one or two individual coaching salaries.

Last Edited: 4/9/2021 2:18:03 PM by TWT

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 574

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  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 2:17:53 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:


Solution to me seems to aim for a lower target enrollment and attract students by having a lower student to faculty ratio. Raise the sticker price to the level of Miami and invest more in the student experience. Set the target for undergraduate 13,500 with allowances for bigger classes from time to time.


I think that's a very dangerous game. Remember that Miami has enough endowment funds devoted to financial aid that they get the ultimate net cost down to roughly equal to Ohio, and both are still 20% higher than OSU. You can't make Ohio significantly costlier than Miami and OSU while being the lowest ranked and least selective of the three unless you want an overwhelming amount of lower achieving rich kids every Fall. Also, remember that Miami has been playing the "we must be better than OSU because we cost a lot more" card for 25 years now, and OSU has been kicking the crap out of them for 25 years.



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TWT
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,083

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: We Need to Follow Texas's Lead
   Posted: 4/9/2021 3:03:35 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:


Solution to me seems to aim for a lower target enrollment and attract students by having a lower student to faculty ratio. Raise the sticker price to the level of Miami and invest more in the student experience. Set the target for undergraduate 13,500 with allowances for bigger classes from time to time.


I think that's a very dangerous game. Remember that Miami has enough endowment funds devoted to financial aid that they get the ultimate net cost down to roughly equal to Ohio, and both are still 20% higher than OSU. You can't make Ohio significantly costlier than Miami and OSU while being the lowest ranked and least selective of the three unless you want an overwhelming amount of lower achieving rich kids every Fall. Also, remember that Miami has been playing the "we must be better than OSU because we cost a lot more" card for 25 years now, and OSU has been kicking the crap out of them for 25 years.


OU has always had good packages to offer "top" students that graduate in the upper 5% of their class but they've thrown a lot of money in recent years to attract students that are in the top 15%-20%. That plan has generally backfired resulting in less net tuition.

If the university downsized and charged more but offered more perks that rich kids were willing to pay for you're in a space where OSU can't compete. Smaller enrollment equals stronger overall class numbers, lower class sizes all of which help the USWNR ranking.

I'm not sure if marketing the school as one brand is the best move. College by college approach seems to have worked in the past. Its a good way to network with students because you're not gaining admission into a university but a journalism school. Its part of the culture of the university and balances out negatives like location/isolation.

Student athletes for example are recruited to join a coach's program. Its a community appeal thing.

The decline in enrollment started the second the new administration has come on board. There was a system in place to recruit students which has fallen apart.

Last Edited: 4/9/2021 3:08:26 PM by TWT

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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