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Topic: We are number 354

Topic: We are number 354

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giacomo
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Member Since: 11/20/2007
Post Count: 2,689

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We are number 354

Posted: 9/6/2019 8:52:18 AM

https://www.wsj.com/articles/explore-the-full-wsj-the-col...

WSJ rankings

Case Western 52
OSU 86
Kenyon 91
Oberlin 96
Buffalo 110
Dennison 117
Wooster 143
Ohio Northen 160
Ohio Wesleyan 185
Miami 216
Dayton 242
Xavier 304
John Carrol 305
Toledo 323
Cincinnati 328
Marietta 337
OHIO 354
Wittenberg 389

Last Edited: 9/6/2019 8:55:13 AM by giacomo

OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 574

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/6/2019 9:15:21 AM

I'd need to see the methodology before deciding if these rankings have any validity. A couple of things seem to be off though. If it's undergrad focused, how is OSU (and Case for that matter) above Kenyon and Oberlin (though not by much)? Conversely, if it's weighted to grad/research, how is Miami above UC and Ohio and Case above OSU? Since it's the WSJ, maybe Miami gets a bump because no Democrats attend the school.

Last Edited: 9/6/2019 9:18:27 AM by OUPride

giacomo
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Member Since: 11/20/2007
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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/7/2019 8:28:20 AM

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-the-wsj-the-college-ran...

This may give you some explanation.
If the rankings were about soft pretzels or uniform styles this discussion might be a bit livelier.

Last Edited: 9/7/2019 8:31:08 AM by giacomo

OUPride
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RE: We are number 354 (NT)

Posted: 9/7/2019 10:11:34 AM

Last Edited: 9/9/2019 7:27:46 AM by OUPride

OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 574

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 7:12:17 AM

The one most people pay attention to dropped today. Love it or hate it, it's the one that students, parents and hs counselors pay attention to.

Case 40
OSU 54
Fiami 91
Dayton 132
Cincy 139
Ohio 185 (tied with Biola, Chatham, UNC-Wilmington and Houston)
Kent 211
BG 246
Toledo 293-381
Akron 293-381

I'll point out once again that before McDavis came along we were consistently in the 110-120 range and plummeted during his tenure. He was all big, grandiose talk covering up failure.

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,083

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 7:59:10 AM

OUPride wrote:

So what exactly 'failed" during the previous administration?

Mike Johnson
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Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
Post Count: 1,729

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 8:57:14 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

OUPride wrote:

So what exactly 'failed" during the previous administration?

Oh c'mon, Alan, how unfeeling of you to ask someone to support an assertion with verified facts. Tsk ,tsk.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

OUPride
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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 11:58:23 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

OUPride wrote:

So what exactly 'failed" during the previous administration?

Student recruitment off the bat. McDavis had very favorable demographic trends with which to deal, and he completely failed to capitalize on them. Our admissions profile was stagnant while OSU and Miami put further distance between themselves and Ohio while UC surpassed us for selectivity. Like it or not, perceptions of university quality are driven to a high degree on how selective the school is.

Now, we have decidedly unfavorable demographic trends with which to deal, and you're seeing the result in declining enrollment all while countless well qualified kids would rather sit at an OSU branch campus than come to Athens.

TWT
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,092

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 4:19:33 PM

OUPride wrote:

I'll point out once again that before McDavis came along we were consistently in the 110-120 range and plummeted during his tenure. He was all big, grandiose talk covering up failure.

It mostly has to do with the addition of more private schools considered in the national rankings. Most parents that are directing kids to OU though are looking at price, programs and campus. Miami's financial model is more susceptible to a decline in rankings relying on Chicago region students.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

giacomo
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Member Since: 11/20/2007
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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 4:46:25 PM

Which study are you quoting?

TWT
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 6:01:56 PM

giacomo wrote:

Which study are you quoting?

US News and World Report

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

David E Brightbill
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Member Since: 9/5/2005
Post Count: 113

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 8:29:03 PM

OUPride wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

OUPride wrote:

So what exactly 'failed" during the previous administration?

Apparently you weren�t there when the Board of trustees discussed and focused the administration on the University� s access mission. Ohio University sits in the middle of Appalachian Ohio. I am proud of the fact that we recruited increasing numbers of first generations students strove to increase diversity and enrolled more students from our immediate catchment area. The Urban and Appalachian Scholarships were created. ACT scores did gradually increase while applications and enrollment grew. This was done without sending off �unworthy students� to our regional campuses as was and is being done at an unnamed university.

There certainly was discussion about selectivity but it never was determined to be the most important part of our recruitment mission!

Kevin Finnegan
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Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 1,140

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 8:54:20 PM

So, let's assume that the WSJ has objective criteria to determine rankings. In that case, Dr. Nellis has something to boast about with a ranking of 354. Just take a look at giacomo's post last year:
http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

I'd say a 100 place increase from one year to the next is quite an improvement.

TWT
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,092

Status: Offline

RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/9/2019 10:36:58 PM

David E Brightbill wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

OUPride wrote:

So what exactly 'failed" during the previous administration?

The knock on OU in the 80's and 90's was it had become too white bread and was turning into another Miami. Diversity was viewed as a weakness so they worked on it. OU at least takes its mission to educate the state seriously as its first priority. OSU believes its above the educational needs of the state and is focused on competing with the top research universities of the country.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 574

Status: Offline

RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/13/2019 9:09:56 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

David E Brightbill wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

OUPride wrote:

So what exactly 'failed" during the previous administration?

I guess that I don't see being selective as being mutually exclusive with diversity. OSU seems to manage the two in terms of percentage of students who get Pell Grants and first generation college students as well as making the lists of best colleges for African-American and Hispanic students. Not every selective public university is Miami. In fact, I'd say that Miami is an exception in its white, fratboy, business major uniformity. It's a poor man's Pepperdine. Right now, I see a situation where Ohio is more and more being lumped in as one of the group of other state school, no different than Kent or Toledo. We may not believe it to be so, but it's increasingly becoming the perception around the state, and it's going to take some bold leadership to reverse.

TWT
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,092

Status: Offline

RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/13/2019 8:52:20 PM

OSU is doing better with diversity as an urban school. Without initiatives to attract underrepresented students and priority for it, OU naturally attracts a Miami type student. The average ACT score from the suburban high schools to Ohio University is 3 to 4 points higher than what Ohio accepts from the Appalachian region. Vedder is right in that the campus is designed for 15,000 students and it should be a Public Ivy. Instead McDavis moved it in the direction of becoming an access schools which has some advantages. More students means more tuition for the budget and state money which keeps the cost of attendance down. With Kent and Toledo they've improved their academics a lot over the past 30 years. What I would think is solution is to push for a University of California type system where OSU, Ohio, Kent, Toledo, UC all get elevated research funding as a first class university system. Otherwise I don't believe there is a way to turn around OU in the rankings without special state status. SUNY brand is another success like this because the SUNY label implies first tier/land grant quality.

Last Edited: 9/13/2019 8:56:24 PM by TWT

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 574

Status: Offline

RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/17/2019 9:28:21 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

While I certainly am in favor of being more selective, I've never much cared for the "public ivy" concept. The Ivy League has as much to do with elitism and social cache as it does with academic excellence. While Miami might desperately crave that elitism, I don't think it's something that Ohio should aspire to.

As for restructuring the system, I'm 100% in agreement. The system is overbuilt and redundant and has long been plagued by internal competition. That's also a system that Vern Alden fought very hard to create mistakenly thinking that Ohio would get to move to selective admissions with Miami only to be played like a fool by Millett.

As for undoing the damage of the 1960s which still lingers on today, I like your idea, but for it to work politically you'd need three tiers: OSU on top, the Ohio-UC-Kent-Toledo group in the middle and then everyone else. As the state Senator I worked for said about the politics of higher education in Ohio post-Rhodes, "OSU doesn't have enough power to get everything they want, but they do have the power to block anything they don't want." You saw that clearly in how fast the former UC President was shot down when he called for "multiple flagships." Even Kasich came out and publicly mocked the idea. OSU will never allow the system to go back to anything resembling an "all schools (or even some schools) are equal mentality." And besides, OSU--with the exception of their stockpiling too many high quality kids with their huge freshman classes and branch campuses--isn't the main problem for Ohio. The main problem is the system that Alden helped create where every campus in Ohio has felt free to try and turn themselves into OSU by adding on redundant, lowly ranked and unnecessary graduate and research programs.

I'm not sure how Miami fits in. I guess they could just focus on being the safety school for University of Illinois rejects.

TWT
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,092

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/18/2019 8:17:43 AM

OSU could eventually decide a system like we're describing is in its interest over trying to play lord in-state. They are less reliant on state support than ever and so far ahead in research that there is nothing to lose. Think about the restructuring of the state formula from a few years ago to focus on graduation rate. OSU wouldn't have allowed it 30 years ago when they were down around a 50% graduation rate but the waited until their admissions tightened up before agreeing to a change in the funding formula. You are right they are not going to back something not in their interest. A top tier system might be. Some of the arrogance of Gee or Kasich is not how future state leadership may view the issue. There was a time for example when OSU would not play the MAC in football to stamp out competition but now don't care with all the advantages baked into the system they'd prefer to keep the payday money instate.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 574

Status: Offline

RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/18/2019 11:14:35 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

I get what you're saying, but I just don't see OSU ever accepting a reorganization of the system that places a group of other campuses on an equal tier with them. They were burned too badly in the 60s and 70s to do it. If I'm sitting in Columbus, I'd think it would be preferable to just keep things as they are with them floating above the fray while all the other campuses compete with each other in some academic hunger games before accepting anything that remotely smacks of "multiple flagships.

And besides, as you mention, they're already so far ahead of everyone else in everything from undergrad admissions to endowment to faculty and doctoral programs that I don't see that big of a deal in simply acknowledging the reality on the ground if it's part of a negotiation to reorganize the system in a way that benefits all. In fact, they could maybe be convinced to cap their freshman classes at 6K, which would create about 800-1000 well qualified kids for the rest of the system.

As for the Akrons, Wright States etc, they'll be facing such a financial and enrollment crunch that they'll accept anything that allows them a lifeline.

TWT
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Location: Alexandria, VA
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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/18/2019 11:38:41 PM

Obviously the university has some limitations because of the SEO location. One of the big success stories of the past decade was branching out the medical school to Dublin and the Cleveland Clinic. The Osteopathic school doesn't attract the largest research dollars in the state but with the largest amount of medical graduates and statewide mission its respected. The changes put into place with the University of Ohio system benefits OU. Tying state appropriations to graduation rates benefits OU. Requiring centers of excellence for graduate funding benefits to keep the competition down. Ideally a SUNY type system with funds for elevated researcher salaries would lock in the perception of quality. I didn't like how the University System of Ohio has us as four corner university with BG, Miami and Kent and not listed as a research university. A big STEM upgrade is going on in Athens with additional space for physical sciences, engineering and new medical school. There is potential in engineering to do with health sciences and corner the middle market with online programs and extension campuses (Beavercreek, Pickerington) that can compete against the Wright State's in their market. Westlake be a good location NEO since its far enough away from Akron's turf and could pull students from the west Cleveland suburbs. Cleveland St, Akron, Youngstown St are in trouble competing against a declining regional population and online programs. Ohio's online graduate engineering program is ranked #37 with 500 students. The key IMO is to offer educational services in the higher end markets of the state and to be following OSU a major statewide brand.

https://www.ohio.edu/engineering/news/news-story.cfm?news...

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

BillyTheCat
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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/19/2019 12:00:58 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Last numbers I saw had us 3rd among the 13 public schools in OHIO. Well behind OSU and Miami.

TWT
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Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,092

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/19/2019 11:06:59 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Last numbers I saw had us 3rd among the 13 public schools in OHIO. Well behind OSU and Miami.

I'm talking about outreach and performing as an economic generator for the state. Miami admitted 10,093 Ohio residents and 11,403 non-Ohio residents in 2019. 12.8% were legacy admits of Miami alumni.

http://miamioh.edu/admission/high-school/admitted-student...

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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Post Count: 574

Status: Offline

RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/20/2019 8:16:28 AM

Please tell me that Miami doesn't take legacy status into account for admissions. No public university should ever do that.

Mike Johnson
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Location: North Canton, OH
Post Count: 1,729

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RE: We are number 354

Posted: 9/20/2019 12:07:30 PM

OUPride wrote:

Please tell me that Miami doesn't take legacy status into account for admissions. No public university should ever do that.

Not disagreeing with you but certainly there are good reasons, especially long-term financial ones, for doing so...

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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