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Topic:  Vedder opines in WSJ

Topic:  Vedder opines in WSJ
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/13/2019 3:53:13 PM 
https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-wouldnt-cost-so-much...

He doesn’t pull any punches on the state of higher education.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/13/2019 4:28:22 PM 
My favorite line from the article and biggest beef: At my mid-quality state university (Ohio University), I taught three courses a week for nine hours in 1965; my colleagues today teach only two courses for six hours. At some top-flight research universities, senior professors may teach only one course.

And of course, this one comes in second: In 1970 at a typical university there were perhaps two professors for each administrator. Today, there are usually more nonteaching administrators than professors.

Last Edited: 4/13/2019 4:31:45 PM by Alan Swank
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/13/2019 5:03:30 PM 
That was an odd comment. I think he’s right about the second comment.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/14/2019 12:32:35 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
My favorite line from the article and biggest beef: At my mid-quality state university (Ohio University), I taught three courses a week for nine hours in 1965; my colleagues today teach only two courses for six hours. At some top-flight research universities, senior professors may teach only one course.

And of course, this one comes in second: In 1970 at a typical university there were perhaps two professors for each administrator. Today, there are usually more nonteaching administrators than professors.



I wouldn't take anything Vedder says personally. He hates all public universities and believes they shouldn't exist.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/14/2019 3:00:48 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
My favorite line from the article and biggest beef: At my mid-quality state university (Ohio University), I taught three courses a week for nine hours in 1965; my colleagues today teach only two courses for six hours. At some top-flight research universities, senior professors may teach only one course.

And of course, this one comes in second: In 1970 at a typical university there were perhaps two professors for each administrator. Today, there are usually more nonteaching administrators than professors.



I wouldn't take anything Vedder says personally. He hates all public universities and believes they shouldn't exist.


Bit of a overstatement don't you think. Unless you have spoken with him personally, on what do you make such a bold statement?
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/14/2019 3:23:53 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
My favorite line from the article and biggest beef: At my mid-quality state university (Ohio University), I taught three courses a week for nine hours in 1965; my colleagues today teach only two courses for six hours. At some top-flight research universities, senior professors may teach only one course.

And of course, this one comes in second: In 1970 at a typical university there were perhaps two professors for each administrator. Today, there are usually more nonteaching administrators than professors.



I wouldn't take anything Vedder says personally. He hates all public universities and believes they shouldn't exist.


OU Pride, the last time I read some of your related posts you were busy calling former President McDavis (McGruff.) Many of us liked his leadership and felt he brought in a lot of research money into the university. Now you are insulting Dr Vedder because he wants a little accountability. You seem to surmise he wishes all public universities didn't exist. We may not like everything he says or does, but I would hope reasonable minded people would be for financial accountability. I am kind of curious what exactly are you looking for in a university president, researcher or administrator? It's not like those in charge can just print money and make prospective students move to Athens.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/14/2019 7:16:33 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
My favorite line from the article and biggest beef: At my mid-quality state university (Ohio University), I taught three courses a week for nine hours in 1965; my colleagues today teach only two courses for six hours. At some top-flight research universities, senior professors may teach only one course.

And of course, this one comes in second: In 1970 at a typical university there were perhaps two professors for each administrator. Today, there are usually more nonteaching administrators than professors.



I wouldn't take anything Vedder says personally. He hates all public universities and believes they shouldn't exist.


Bit of a overstatement don't you think. Unless you have spoken with him personally, on what do you make such a bold statement?



Actually, if you dig into his "think tank" and writings he has explicitly come out against the existence of public higher education and any type of federal or state financial aid. That's his end game: private universities for those who can afford them. The plebs get whatever in-house training that the corporations would deem necessary to make us good worker bees.

Yes, he talks about things that people care about: out of control tuition, athletic subsidies, executive bloat. He ,however, uses those issues the way that peta uses puppy mills or factory farming, to gain legitimacy for a much more radical overall agenda that most people would not support.
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 10:19:53 AM 
That's just plain silly. He simply is following a model that is different than your's. I do find it humorous that those who want free college stuff don't seem to tell their devotees that even Social Democratic Western Europe have a system where few people go to college, but most are trained for their specific professional/vocational aspirations.

Last Edited: 4/15/2019 10:57:11 AM by cbus cat fan
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 12:31:05 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
That's just plain silly. He simply is following a model that is different than your's. I do find it humorous that those who want free college stuff don't seem to tell their devotees that even Social Democratic Western Europe have a system where few people go to college, but most are trained for their specific professional/vocational aspirations.


It's not clear to me why it's super relevant how the college system works in Western Europe. Their economies differ vastly from ours as do their college costs. What purpose does drawing a comparison between economies of Western Europe and the US serve? The various free/subsidized college proposals in the US are solving for a completely different problem at a completely different scale.
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ChiCat2018
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 12:48:32 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
My favorite line from the article and biggest beef: At my mid-quality state university (Ohio University), I taught three courses a week for nine hours in 1965; my colleagues today teach only two courses for six hours. At some top-flight research universities, senior professors may teach only one course.

And of course, this one comes in second: In 1970 at a typical university there were perhaps two professors for each administrator. Today, there are usually more nonteaching administrators than professors.



I wouldn't take anything Vedder says personally. He hates all public universities and believes they shouldn't exist.


Bit of a overstatement don't you think. Unless you have spoken with him personally, on what do you make such a bold statement?



Actually, if you dig into his "think tank" and writings he has explicitly come out against the existence of public higher education and any type of federal or state financial aid. That's his end game: private universities for those who can afford them. The plebs get whatever in-house training that the corporations would deem necessary to make us good worker bees.

Yes, he talks about things that people care about: out of control tuition, athletic subsidies, executive bloat. He ,however, uses those issues the way that peta uses puppy mills or factory farming, to gain legitimacy for a much more radical overall agenda that most people would not support.


As someone who knows Dr. Vedder very well I would like to give you some insight into his ideas about higher education. First and foremost he loves Athens and Ohio University, he just realizes OU isn't on the same footing as Northwestern or Harvard for example. His main gripes with higher ed today can be summed up as 'it's too damn expensive and not worth the money*'. I add the * because they are still many careers that need these degrees. Ideally schools would cut costs, unnecessary administrators, athletics, high end rec centers etc. He sees college as a place where you go for an education that will set you up in the future for a good career. Cutting these costs and getting higher education back to it's roots of being focused on education would make college much more affordable. He's also in favor of trade schools/apprenticeships. This article (others are out there) talks about how Government guaranteed loans drive prices up https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/02/22/ho...
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 2:55:13 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
That's just plain silly. He simply is following a model that is different than your's. I do find it humorous that those who want free college stuff don't seem to tell their devotees that even Social Democratic Western Europe have a system where few people go to college, but most are trained for their specific professional/vocational aspirations.


It's not clear to me why it's super relevant how the college system works in Western Europe. Their economies differ vastly from ours as do their college costs. What purpose does drawing a comparison between economies of Western Europe and the US serve? The various free/subsidized college proposals in the US are solving for a completely different problem at a completely different scale.


Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame, so let me get this straight. You have someone on the site maligning one of our more noteworthy university officials. You let that pass, but come after me because you don't like the factual example I cited?
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 2:59:27 PM 
I'm no fan of Vedder.

That being said,based on my experience,I found his article to be "on point".

As I've posted,I work with F.D.U.
I can attest to Vedder's observation on the ratio of administrators to teaching professors.
A significant number of classes are now being taught by adjuncts or instructors.

I also found his comments about how much time students spend in class and studying to be right on the money.

At one time,there were complaints from faculty in certain majors,when one of their classes was scheduled to include Friday.

Now its not just class and studying time.
In New Jersey there's a push,to lower the number of credit hours needed for a degree.

New Jersey is now pushing for 120 semester credit hours for most degrees.
The only exceptions are engineering and certain sciences.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 3:11:22 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
That's just plain silly. He simply is following a model that is different than your's. I do find it humorous that those who want free college stuff don't seem to tell their devotees that even Social Democratic Western Europe have a system where few people go to college, but most are trained for their specific professional/vocational aspirations.


It's not clear to me why it's super relevant how the college system works in Western Europe. Their economies differ vastly from ours as do their college costs. What purpose does drawing a comparison between economies of Western Europe and the US serve? The various free/subsidized college proposals in the US are solving for a completely different problem at a completely different scale.


Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame, so let me get this straight. You have someone on the site maligning one of our more noteworthy university officials. You let that pass, but come after me because you don't like the factual example I cited?


Come after you? I asked you to clarify the point you were making.

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 3:25:46 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Come after you? I asked you to clarify the point you were making.


If you still don't see the irony in what I just mentioned, no use delving further into facts; you just don't want to see them.

Last Edited: 4/15/2019 3:29:08 PM by cbus cat fan
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 3:50:34 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Come after you? I asked you to clarify the point you were making.



If you still don't see the irony in what I just mentioned, no use delving further into facts; you just don't want to see them.



Okay, man. I honestly just have no idea what your point is nor did I even know, until now, that you were pointing out something you feel is ironic. You think your point's self evident; it's not. I am continuously baffled by how hard people here are willing to work to avoid explaining why they believe what they believe.

Last Edited: 4/15/2019 3:51:59 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 4:10:27 PM 
cbus posed a question that Pride should address: what kind of president does HE want?
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mid70sbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/15/2019 9:54:44 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
My favorite line from the article and biggest beef: At my mid-quality state university (Ohio University), I taught three courses a week for nine hours in 1965; my colleagues today teach only two courses for six hours. At some top-flight research universities, senior professors may teach only one course.

And of course, this one comes in second: In 1970 at a typical university there were perhaps two professors for each administrator. Today, there are usually more nonteaching administrators than professors.



I wouldn't take anything Vedder says personally. He hates all public universities and believes they shouldn't exist.


I guess that's why he teaches at a public university.

Did you ever take a course from Dr. Vedder? I did.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/16/2019 9:01:15 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
cbus posed a question that Pride should address: what kind of president does HE want?


Good and fair question. McDavis' fundraising abilities with less emphasis on athletics and less big talk that he didn't follow through on. I'd like to see the President of Ohio attempt to define a strategic vision for the university that's realistic otherwise we might very well end up a basket case like Akron. And that's going to require working with OSU and accepting their role in the system. McDavis' seemed much more intent on poking a stick in OSU's eye. If there are fundamental changes to the public university system in Ohio, either OSU is going to have a large say in what they are or they'll continue to just hover above the fray and let the other schools cannibalize each other. Ohio tried once to be on the team with Miami to take down OSU, and it didn't work. It's time to get on the winning team.


As for Vedder, I agree (and stated) that he does address solid issues that are of legitimate concern. My problem with him is that he does so to advance a long term end game with which I have fundamental disagreements. As for disparaging him, he's chosen to make himself a highly visible figure (with the help of Mellon-Scaife's money) in the debate over higher education in this country, and that absolutely makes him open to criticism for some of his more extreme views regardless of any past affiliation with Ohio.
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/18/2019 4:24:09 PM 
mid70sbobcat wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
My favorite line from the article and biggest beef: At my mid-quality state university (Ohio University), I taught three courses a week for nine hours in 1965; my colleagues today teach only two courses for six hours. At some top-flight research universities, senior professors may teach only one course.

And of course, this one comes in second: In 1970 at a typical university there were perhaps two professors for each administrator. Today, there are usually more nonteaching administrators than professors.



I wouldn't take anything Vedder says personally. He hates all public universities and believes they shouldn't exist.


I guess that's why he teaches at a public university.

Did you ever take a course from Dr. Vedder? I did.



I did. I also went to church with him. I don't know if he would explicitly say that he doesn't believe public universities should exist (I never asked him), but I can tell you that his preferred policy prescriptions would lead to that outcome.

Also, the fact that he works at a public university doesn't really mean much. I have a colleague that believes that public universities shouldn't exist and that government should be as minimal as possible. He doesn't believe that the government should have any role in urban planning, zoning, or providing public transportation. We work as urban planners for a local government agency. His wife works at a public university. He and his wife received all of their degrees from public universities. When I've pointed this out to him he shrugs it off and basically says he plays the game he's forced to.

The cognitive dissonance is strong with some people.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/20/2019 8:32:36 PM 
https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/Op-Ed/2019/04/19/Ric...

More from Vedder.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/22/2019 5:23:30 PM 
giacomo wrote:
https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/Op-Ed/2019/04/19/Ric...

More from Vedder.


Bingo! Been saying this for years - "Whereas between 1840 and 1978 tuition fees rose roughly 1 percent annually adjusting for overall inflation, that tripled in modern times, mainly because new federal student financial assistance programs have provided colleges with a golden opportunity to raise fees." It's not financial aid, it's a loan. Huge difference and it's allowed colleges to continue to increase staff to raise more money to give more money away. Just doesn't make sense.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/22/2019 5:25:44 PM 
giacomo wrote:
https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/Op-Ed/2019/04/19/Ric...

More from Vedder.


Basically a rewrite of the WSJ article - kind of like recycled research that he criticizes.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder opines in WSJ
   Posted: 4/23/2019 2:34:39 PM 
You are correct, Alan. And it has got to go the other way for most places or they won't survive.

It's similar to the cost of your namesake magazine "SWANK" in 1978 and today.
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