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Topic:  Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis

Topic:  Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis
   Posted: 3/5/2020 7:21:25 PM 
Lots of posters on this board are involved in Ohio's public education. Would love to hear their opinion on this piece in general and paragraph 4 in particular.

https://www.athensnews.com/opinion/readers_forum/ou-shoul...

Last Edited: 3/5/2020 8:55:15 PM by Alan Swank
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cbus cat fan
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Member Since: 12/2/2011
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  Message Not Read  RE: Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis
   Posted: 3/5/2020 8:06:22 PM 
OK perhaps the good professor doesn't realize that in many public school districts the teachers of that particular high school building don't teach the College Credit Plus classes. Why you ask, because the structured teaching requirements mean that even some high school teachers with a Master's can't teach the College Credit Plus courses. For example, many Higher Ed institutions use their own staff and or hire a myriad of adjunct faculty in my old teaching field of Social Studies. Why you ask, because a high school teacher with a Master's has to have a set number of hours past his or her Master's to teach that particular College Credit Plus class. I know an administrator at Columbus State who says his staff pulls their hair out in late summer and early January as they try to manage the classes they are obliged to teach from the local high schools in which they have a contract.

Perhaps the good professor might want to explain to Johnny and Suzy's parents why getting the near of equivalent of an Associates's while in high school is a bad thing if it saves the parents and their children thousands of dollars. I don't know if he wrote that due to ignorance or what, but I would suggest he might want to find the exit doors before he gives a talk at a high school telling parents they need to pay more for a college education because he doesn't like College Credit Plus. Talk about Ivory Tower elitism!

As for his reference to administrative and salary bloat, I share his frustration. Alan, OCF and others would be far more conversant than myself in knowing the ins and outs of that bloat. However, in all fairness how many professors haven't upped their game in a while either. In another thread some time ago, I believed I shared a story that in the early 1980s I was taking a History 101 course when the professor (who I will not name) mistakenly referred to an invention of Hiram Moore as one associated with Cyrus McCormick. A son of a farmer in the class corrected him and the professor laughed; showing us his decrepit looking notebook stating he had made the same mistake for every quarter since the Fall of 1965 when he first started teaching the class. The point being, some profs rail at administrators when the need to get their own professional and creative house in order.

Last Edited: 3/5/2020 9:18:18 PM by cbus cat fan
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,082

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis
   Posted: 3/7/2020 7:52:01 AM 
Any idea what percentage of college credit plus students take the classes at their high school taught by a high school teacher as opposed to those who take them at a college taught by a college professor? At Athens High it's overwhelming the latter (15 to 1 or higher).
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis
   Posted: 3/7/2020 10:12:29 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Any idea what percentage of college credit plus students take the classes at their high school taught by a high school teacher as opposed to those who take them at a college taught by a college professor? At Athens High it's overwhelming the latter (15 to 1 or higher).


That is a very good question Alan. I would imagine it has to do with the local universities in the area. It seems in the central Ohio area Columbus State has more options. I think they partner with Ohio Dominican, but Columbus State supplies the adjunct faculty. In addition to the Delaware County campus, Columbus State actually goes the high schools whereas Ohio State makes the students come to one of their campuses. I don't know the numbers with regard to Columbus State vs Ohio State. However, I would imagine many students outside of Franklin County would take the Columbus State option because of transportation issues. I can't get into the weeds or details, because I really don't know all the ins and outs.
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,082

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis
   Posted: 3/7/2020 12:41:11 PM 
Full disclosure and after having talked with a few students taking college credit plus in a university setting, I'm not particularly a big fan of the program for a variety of reasons. Some kids readily admit to gaming the system in that the class they take at a university is easier than the same class at their local high school. Secondly, in schools with weighted grades, taking the easier class at college helps enhance their GPA. Third, who is going to hire a kid who graduates at 20 or 21 from college? Had I gone the CC+ route and graduated in 3 years, I would have just turned 21 when I took my first high school teaching job. In talking to superintendants today, very few if any would place a just out of college teacher in that position. And finally, there's the whole personal growth and maturation process.

That said, it's very tough to argue against free college credit.
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cbus cat fan
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Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

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  Message Not Read  RE: Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis
   Posted: 3/7/2020 1:33:25 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Full disclosure and after having talked with a few students taking college credit plus in a university setting, I'm not particularly a big fan of the program for a variety of reasons. Some kids readily admit to gaming the system in that the class they take at a university is easier than the same class at their local high school. Secondly, in schools with weighted grades, taking the easier class at college helps enhance their GPA. Third, who is going to hire a kid who graduates at 20 or 21 from college? Had I gone the CC+ route and graduated in 3 years, I would have just turned 21 when I took my first high school teaching job. In talking to superintendants today, very few if any would place a just out of college teacher in that position. And finally, there's the whole personal growth and maturation process.

That said, it's very tough to argue against free college credit.


Alan, I am pretty sure that most students who take College Credit Plus have no desire to go into the teaching profession. My sense of these students; they are eager to concentrate on getting requirements out of the way. These are the same kids who take PE in summer. In doing this, they can take a more prestigious elective during the school year so that they can show prospective colleges they are serious students. Many may be also be keeping the Master's option open.

As for the hiring process. In any field it is somewhat of a crap shoot; Education often being the most noteworthy for the worst of reasons. God knows I have interviewed enough students at campus recruiting fairs that I thought they just aren't ready. Yet, it is often the teacher who has a few years under his or her belt that engages in inappropriate conversations etc with students that really throws one for a loop. We certainly have seen enough of this in the news lately.

Keep in mind before World War II, students were sent to teachers's college for a year or two after high school and then sent into the classroom. My grandmother finished high school a month short of her 17th birthday and was teaching in a One Room Schoolhouse one month short of her 18th birthday. Three students in her classroom were older than her. Heaven help the child that tried to roll over that 5 foot young woman. Maturity can't always be measured in years.

Last Edited: 3/7/2020 1:38:16 PM by cbus cat fan
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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,082

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis
   Posted: 3/7/2020 1:46:42 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Full disclosure and after having talked with a few students taking college credit plus in a university setting, I'm not particularly a big fan of the program for a variety of reasons. Some kids readily admit to gaming the system in that the class they take at a university is easier than the same class at their local high school. Secondly, in schools with weighted grades, taking the easier class at college helps enhance their GPA. Third, who is going to hire a kid who graduates at 20 or 21 from college? Had I gone the CC+ route and graduated in 3 years, I would have just turned 21 when I took my first high school teaching job. In talking to superintendants today, very few if any would place a just out of college teacher in that position. And finally, there's the whole personal growth and maturation process.

That said, it's very tough to argue against free college credit.


Alan, I am pretty sure that most students who take College Credit Plus have no desire to go into the teaching profession. My sense of these students; they are eager to concentrate on getting requirements out of the way. These are the same kids who take PE in summer. In doing this, they can take a more prestigious elective during the school year so that they can show prospective colleges they are serious students. Many may be also be keeping the Master's option open.



Our anecdotal experiences are quite different on this. I have seen many students take CC+ and before that SB140 simply to escape the public high school. Many of these kids were no more ready for college level work than a man in the moon. For those who can attend a college, it often means the chance to sleep in as opposed to being at school at 7:30 (I actually heard a school board candidate articulate that about her child during a school board candidates' forum), only going to school 3 or 4 days a week vs 5, getting a long break between semesters and getting out in early May. As for PE, many school boards have effectively eliminated the PE requirement by allowing kids who play sports or become cheerleaders or play in the band to count that as PE. This allowance by the legislature has decimated many quality PE programs in the state.

Again, it's hard to argue against free college but this program ignores the many liabilities of the program and the bigger drivers of college costs alluded to in another thread - ballooning administrations and luxury level amenities.
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cbus cat fan
General User

Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Public school teacher opinion and OU's budget crisis
   Posted: 3/7/2020 2:25:19 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Full disclosure and after having talked with a few students taking college credit plus in a university setting, I'm not particularly a big fan of the program for a variety of reasons. Some kids readily admit to gaming the system in that the class they take at a university is easier than the same class at their local high school. Secondly, in schools with weighted grades, taking the easier class at college helps enhance their GPA. Third, who is going to hire a kid who graduates at 20 or 21 from college? Had I gone the CC+ route and graduated in 3 years, I would have just turned 21 when I took my first high school teaching job. In talking to superintendants today, very few if any would place a just out of college teacher in that position. And finally, there's the whole personal growth and maturation process.

That said, it's very tough to argue against free college credit.


Alan, I am pretty sure that most students who take College Credit Plus have no desire to go into the teaching profession. My sense of these students; they are eager to concentrate on getting requirements out of the way. These are the same kids who take PE in summer. In doing this, they can take a more prestigious elective during the school year so that they can show prospective colleges they are serious students. Many may be also be keeping the Master's option open.



Our anecdotal experiences are quite different on this. I have seen many students take CC+ and before that SB140 simply to escape the public high school. Many of these kids were no more ready for college level work than a man in the moon. For those who can attend a college, it often means the chance to sleep in as opposed to being at school at 7:30 (I actually heard a school board candidate articulate that about her child during a school board candidates' forum), only going to school 3 or 4 days a week vs 5, getting a long break between semesters and getting out in early May. As for PE, many school boards have effectively eliminated the PE requirement by allowing kids who play sports or become cheerleaders or play in the band to count that as PE. This allowance by the legislature has decimated many quality PE programs in the state.

Again, it's hard to argue against free college but this program ignores the many liabilities of the program and the bigger drivers of college costs alluded to in another thread - ballooning administrations and luxury level amenities.


In a somewhat related topic, here is an interesting article concerning former
Indiana Governor and current Purdue President Mitch Daniels and why Purdue's tuition has been frozen at less than $10,000 a year since 2013. Yet, faculty pay has increased more than other universities and Purdue is in the middle of a building boom.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/mitc... /

Last Edited: 3/7/2020 2:28:51 PM by cbus cat fan
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