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Topic:  We are number 400+

Topic:  We are number 400+
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/18/2020 1:01:40 PM 
Wall Street Journal college rankings came out today. 500 schools listed. Harvard #1, OSU #100, Miami #229. We are in the group that ranks 400 to 500. WVU in the same https://www.wsj.com/articles/best-colleges-2021-explore-t...
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/19/2020 11:30:05 AM 
giacomo wrote:
Wall Street Journal college rankings came out today. 500 schools listed. Harvard #1, OSU #100, Miami #229. We are in the group that ranks 400 to 500. WVU in the same https://www.wsj.com/articles/best-colleges-2021-explore-t...


Hot topic here in town. Being blamed primarily on the reduction in teaching faculty (I though all faculty taught) and over-emphasis on athletics - in other words - the same old broken record.
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/19/2020 12:35:08 PM 
These rankings are all bullshit.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/19/2020 4:11:30 PM 
SBH wrote:
These rankings are all bullshit.


Yet as an institution we use them when they are in our favor. Can't have it both ways.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/19/2020 9:58:38 PM 
You have take all these with a grain of salt. Look at the criteria they use (I don't subscribe to the WSJ, so I couldn't open the article). US News has us in an 11-way tie for 176th out of 389 "national universities" (i.e, colleges and universities that offer a full range of undergrad degrees plus master's and PHDs and are committed to groundbreaking research). We're there with L'ville, Houston, UMass-Lowell, St Joe (CT), Washington St, Thomas Jefferson U in Philly, St John Fisher College in Rochester, NY, Montclair State, Missouri University of Science and Tech, and CUNY-City College in NYC. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-un...

They use the Carnegie system to rank schools, which they say is the accepted standard in US higher ed. The ranking factors can be found here: https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/h...

Forbes says its list is "our annual review of the undergraduate institutions that deliver the top academics, best experiences, career success and lowest debt. Whether a school is in the Top 10 or near the bottom of the list, these 650 count as the best in the country. We include just 15% of the 4,300 degree-granting postsecondary institutions in the U.S., so appearing here at all is an indication that a school meets a high standard." Ohio made the list last year, at #438. https://www.forbes.com/top-colleges/#192635d21987 I haven't seen a Forbes list for this year yet.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/19/2020 11:05:31 PM 
If there are 4300 schools in the US, then being in the top 500 isn’t so bad. I only saw us and Miami in the WSJ rankings. Buffalo is usually there.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/20/2020 10:10:23 AM 
giacomo wrote:
If there are 4300 schools in the US, then being in the top 500 isn’t so bad. I only saw us and Miami in the WSJ rankings. Buffalo is usually there.


A lot depends on what you call a college or university.

https://www.infoplease.com/us/education/number-us-college...
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/20/2020 10:32:09 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
giacomo wrote:
If there are 4300 schools in the US, then being in the top 500 isn’t so bad. I only saw us and Miami in the WSJ rankings. Buffalo is usually there.


A lot depends on what you call a college or university.

https://www.infoplease.com/us/education/number-us-college...


Wouldn't it depend on what the WSJ considers a college or university?
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Cleveburg Bri
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/20/2020 1:43:04 PM 
Whining about, and nit-picking the rankings is a bit pitiful. It's been obvious to this skeptical observer for decades that Ohio's academic reputation has been dropping like a rock since its high in the 1990s.

To me McDavis was a near-travesty, who appeared to have support on this board largely because he promoted athletics, and perhaps from a handful who think Ohio's primary mission should be as an Appalachian community college.

Last Edited: 9/20/2020 5:16:26 PM by Cleveburg Bri
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MonroeClassmate
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/21/2020 11:49:34 AM 
giacomo wrote:
If there are 4300 schools in the US, then being in the top 500 isn’t so bad. I only saw us and Miami in the WSJ rankings. Buffalo is usually there.


Buffalo ranked #1 of MAC schools--I read the article but sorry, do not have access to the article any longer to confirm the actual ranking of that school up northeast.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/21/2020 5:55:08 PM 
Buffalo at 121.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/24/2020 3:55:12 PM 
As I was scrolling through the list it’s hard to believe some of the schools ahead of us. I think I saw LouieTheBagelman U and Swanky’s State.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/25/2020 12:50:25 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Wall Street Journal college rankings came out today. We are in the group that ranks 400 to 500.


But #1 in our hearts.

Only had one instance in my career where my academic choice was called out (or not). In a work session at the management consulting firm I worked for (for about 11 years) - 5 of us attending - stumped on how to move forward on an issue - Chairman comments on how can we be stumped when we have 2 Yale graduates, an MIT and a Georgetown grad involved - told him that it was okay - Ohio had him covered. He shot me a look.

Ranking doesn't matter - matters how it fits for you.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/25/2020 11:38:46 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
Wall Street Journal college rankings came out today. We are in the group that ranks 400 to 500.


But #1 in our hearts.

Only had one instance in my career where my academic choice was called out (or not). In a work session at the management consulting firm I worked for (for about 11 years) - 5 of us attending - stumped on how to move forward on an issue - Chairman comments on how can we be stumped when we have 2 Yale graduates, an MIT and a Georgetown grad involved - told him that it was okay - Ohio had him covered. He shot me a look.

Ranking doesn't matter - matters how it fits for you.



I agree with cc-cat here in general these rankings mean very little out there in the "real world." There are some exceptions, like if you are being nominated for a high-ranking government position subject to confirmation by the U.S. Senate and everyone at that level is a Ivy Leaguer. But for most folks, it really doesn't matter. For instance, one or our Ohio medical school graduates was on the team that developed the first effective artificial vertebrae. No one really cared the he was a D.O. for Ohio and not an M.D. from Harvard. It's usually what you know, how you apply it, and how hard you work that really matters.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/26/2020 9:08:38 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
Wall Street Journal college rankings came out today. We are in the group that ranks 400 to 500.


But #1 in our hearts.

Only had one instance in my career where my academic choice was called out (or not). In a work session at the management consulting firm I worked for (for about 11 years) - 5 of us attending - stumped on how to move forward on an issue - Chairman comments on how can we be stumped when we have 2 Yale graduates, an MIT and a Georgetown grad involved - told him that it was okay - Ohio had him covered. He shot me a look.

Ranking doesn't matter - matters how it fits for you.



I agree with cc-cat here in general these rankings mean very little out there in the "real world." There are some exceptions, like if you are being nominated for a high-ranking government position subject to confirmation by the U.S. Senate and everyone at that level is a Ivy Leaguer. But for most folks, it really doesn't matter. For instance, one or our Ohio medical school graduates was on the team that developed the first effective artificial vertebrae. No one really cared the he was a D.O. for Ohio and not an M.D. from Harvard. It's usually what you know, how you apply it, and how hard you work that really matters.


I fall in the middle. They matter, but they're not the be-all and end-all in defining a university. And once you're past the five year mark out of school, your alma mater matters infinitely less than what you've shown in the workplace.

Where they do matter is in a couple ways. First, the reputation of a school will directly drive the quality of companies and government agencies that will recruit there. It's no secret that a Silicon Valley VC firm will crawl over a thousand business majors from MAC schools to hire a Philosophy major from Chicago or Yale. If you go to Bowling Green, you probably have a decent chance of getting a job with some agency of the state of Ohio. With the US State Department or CIA? Probably not so much. Second--and this primarily relates to USNWR--is that they drive the general impression and prestige of the school, and prospective parents, students and guidance counselors will use them as a rough measuring stick of how attractive a school is. What your fist choice schools should be. What your safeties should be. What you shouldn't bother with.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/26/2020 12:21:31 PM 
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
Wall Street Journal college rankings came out today. We are in the group that ranks 400 to 500.


But #1 in our hearts.

Only had one instance in my career where my academic choice was called out (or not). In a work session at the management consulting firm I worked for (for about 11 years) - 5 of us attending - stumped on how to move forward on an issue - Chairman comments on how can we be stumped when we have 2 Yale graduates, an MIT and a Georgetown grad involved - told him that it was okay - Ohio had him covered. He shot me a look.

Ranking doesn't matter - matters how it fits for you.



I agree with cc-cat here in general these rankings mean very little out there in the "real world." There are some exceptions, like if you are being nominated for a high-ranking government position subject to confirmation by the U.S. Senate and everyone at that level is a Ivy Leaguer. But for most folks, it really doesn't matter. For instance, one or our Ohio medical school graduates was on the team that developed the first effective artificial vertebrae. No one really cared the he was a D.O. for Ohio and not an M.D. from Harvard. It's usually what you know, how you apply it, and how hard you work that really matters.


I fall in the middle. They matter, but they're not the be-all and end-all in defining a university. And once you're past the five year mark out of school, your alma mater matters infinitely less than what you've shown in the workplace.

Where they do matter is in a couple ways. First, the reputation of a school will directly drive the quality of companies and government agencies that will recruit there. It's no secret that a Silicon Valley VC firm will crawl over a thousand business majors from MAC schools to hire a Philosophy major from Chicago or Yale. If you go to Bowling Green, you probably have a decent chance of getting a job with some agency of the state of Ohio. With the US State Department or CIA? Probably not so much. Second--and this primarily relates to USNWR--is that they drive the general impression and prestige of the school, and prospective parents, students and guidance counselors will use them as a rough measuring stick of how attractive a school is. What your fist choice schools should be. What your safeties should be. What you shouldn't bother with.


The rankings don't matter so much as the information behind the rankings. Things like the majors that are offered, the school's culture, etc. Probably 90% of high school students pick a school because it's close to home, 150 miles or less. So they use the info behind the ratings to help make a choice among those schools. A real benefit of being included on these lists is that a student who might not otherwise have considered the school winds up taking a look at it. People in the "real world" form their opinions about a school based on their experiences and their own personal biases. There was a law firm in DC that would hire attorneys only from Ivy League schools, Georgetown and Northwestern (because the primary name partner went there), even though some outstanding attorneys went to other law schools in the DC area.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/27/2020 12:00:53 PM 
Cleveburg Bri wrote:
Whining about, and nit-picking the rankings is a bit pitiful. It's been obvious to this skeptical observer for decades that Ohio's academic reputation has been dropping like a rock since its high in the 1990s.

To me McDavis was a near-travesty, who appeared to have support on this board largely because he promoted athletics, and perhaps from a handful who think Ohio's primary mission should be as an Appalachian community college.


To run with your point a here the 1990's had schools like Virginia Tech that came out of nowhere to become a national contender in football and gain rep for their university. Boeh/Glidden knew Ohio's stature in athletics was one of the shortfalls at that time. The long term goal I believe was to have the type of success Ohio had since 2010 in football and basketball appearing on national TV ect.

It was Ohio State, the old blueblood program in the horseshoe with a monster run over the past 20 years and recast itself as a university on the move. They were the ones that received an uptick in admissions for having a "sweet football team" as someone once said on this board. The media never pounced on the academic effect for Ohio State because the Ohio St-Michigan game was the biggest blue blood rivalry so many concluded they always had a Top 5 program. Quietly they capitalized on that huge football run.

Ohio's athletic improvements as opinioned by several on this die hard bobcat fan site were rationalized away as modernizations by many people rather than upgrades. It didn't have the broader impact on admissions that each 2 million dollar of marketing value TV appearances were to have.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/28/2020 2:11:17 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
[QUOTE=Cleveburg Bri]
Ohio's athletic improvements as opinioned by several on this die hard bobcat fan site were rationalized away as modernizations by many people rather than upgrades. It didn't have the broader impact on admissions that each 2 million dollar of marketing value TV appearances were to have.


In my mind, there are super obvious reasons spending additional money on MAC football didn't translate to broader admissions gains. Namely, it's a very poor way to spend one's money. It's a spend with a very low ceiling. It's the equivalent of dumping a bunch of marketing spend into Google Adwords and being perfectly satisfied if you never show up on the first four pages of results.

Even the best MAC football team is a middle of the pack FBS team. There's just no real path to national prominence, so from that perspective, it just seems like a poor strategy.
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/28/2020 8:20:04 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
[QUOTE=Cleveburg Bri]
Ohio's athletic improvements as opinioned by several on this die hard bobcat fan site were rationalized away as modernizations by many people rather than upgrades. It didn't have the broader impact on admissions that each 2 million dollar of marketing value TV appearances were to have.


In my mind, there are super obvious reasons spending additional money on MAC football didn't translate to broader admissions gains. Namely, it's a very poor way to spend one's money. It's a spend with a very low ceiling. It's the equivalent of dumping a bunch of marketing spend into Google Adwords and being perfectly satisfied if you never show up on the first four pages of results.

Even the best MAC football team is a middle of the pack FBS team. There's just no real path to national prominence, so from that perspective, it just seems like a poor strategy.


Other fears were wrapped up into it such as a sense of urgency to grow the program or risk being left without a spot if the MAC fell apart which was a very real threat up until 6 or 7 years ago when the latest arrangements with ESPN were signed with the expanded post season money. A lot of conference movement in the 2010-2014 period. Conference USA was a raid threat. MAC's low attendance was viewed in a critical light.

There was a possibility to have a Marshall style run with Solich with multiple Top 25 finishes. If OSU football created at the same time and UC never developed perhaps Ohio could have represented the state. This combo of events is only a hypothetical I'm suggesting. The cone of uncertainty if Ohio athletics didn't invest in football was higher in 2005 and much higher than that in 1995. ROI of the TV marketing value became a way to rationalize it to the non-believers.

Last Edited: 9/28/2020 8:20:53 PM by TWT

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/28/2020 9:25:54 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
[QUOTE=Cleveburg Bri]
Ohio's athletic improvements as opinioned by several on this die hard bobcat fan site were rationalized away as modernizations by many people rather than upgrades. It didn't have the broader impact on admissions that each 2 million dollar of marketing value TV appearances were to have.


In my mind, there are super obvious reasons spending additional money on MAC football didn't translate to broader admissions gains. Namely, it's a very poor way to spend one's money. It's a spend with a very low ceiling. It's the equivalent of dumping a bunch of marketing spend into Google Adwords and being perfectly satisfied if you never show up on the first four pages of results.

Even the best MAC football team is a middle of the pack FBS team. There's just no real path to national prominence, so from that perspective, it just seems like a poor strategy.


Other fears were wrapped up into it such as a sense of urgency to grow the program or risk being left without a spot if the MAC fell apart which was a very real threat up until 6 or 7 years ago when the latest arrangements with ESPN were signed with the expanded post season money. A lot of conference movement in the 2010-2014 period. Conference USA was a raid threat. MAC's low attendance was viewed in a critical light.

There was a possibility to have a Marshall style run with Solich with multiple Top 25 finishes. If OSU football created at the same time and UC never developed perhaps Ohio could have represented the state. This combo of events is only a hypothetical I'm suggesting. The cone of uncertainty if Ohio athletics didn't invest in football was higher in 2005 and much higher than that in 1995. ROI of the TV marketing value became a way to rationalize it to the non-believers.


Can you please share that brownie reciepe?
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/29/2020 11:21:30 AM 
I had a rather sobering discussion with a colleague who knows tons of college administrators across the state and has a soft spot for our Alma mater. He seems to not only know all of the data, but a lot of the backstory as well. According to him, a lot of our problems; budgetary issues, not getting the type of students we did 20 years ago etc stems from the new administration not inspiring anyone, addressing critical issues, or having a plan people can understand.

My colleague points to Cincinnati's turnaround which he believes is the most dramatic in the state. Targeted advertising, recruiting and most especially the apprenticeship that most are involved with is a real game changer. According to him, students get jobs, feel good about their experience, and let others know. This is especially true for their parents. Yet, their campus experience, beauty etc can't hold a candle to ours and here we are wondering where our momentum went?

He also pointed out that Miami's shtick works and we better come up with one of our own and fast. He pointed out the many positive things going on with our beloved Alma mater, like the medical school and so many others that just aren't generating the type of positive vibes that UC is getting. Like I said it was rather sobering. Not being in Athens and only making down for games, I can't get a real feel for the nuts and bolts and the internals of what is going right and what is going wrong. Just thought I would throw that out there for your consumption.

Last Edited: 9/29/2020 11:22:36 AM by cbus cat fan
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/29/2020 12:44:34 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
I had a rather sobering discussion with a colleague who knows tons of college administrators across the state and has a soft spot for our Alma mater. He seems to not only know all of the data, but a lot of the backstory as well. According to him, a lot of our problems; budgetary issues, not getting the type of students we did 20 years ago etc stems from the new administration not inspiring anyone, addressing critical issues, or having a plan people can understand.

My colleague points to Cincinnati's turnaround which he believes is the most dramatic in the state. Targeted advertising, recruiting and most especially the apprenticeship that most are involved with is a real game changer. According to him, students get jobs, feel good about their experience, and let others know. This is especially true for their parents. Yet, their campus experience, beauty etc can't hold a candle to ours and here we are wondering where our momentum went?

He also pointed out that Miami's shtick works and we better come up with one of our own and fast. He pointed out the many positive things going on with our beloved Alma mater, like the medical school and so many others that just aren't generating the type of positive vibes that UC is getting. Like I said it was rather sobering. Not being in Athens and only making down for games, I can't get a real feel for the nuts and bolts and the internals of what is going right and what is going wrong. Just thought I would throw that out there for your consumption.


I would not disagree with a single thing you just posted. And add, what will the effect of the past 18 months of poor decisions have on the next couple of classes?
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/29/2020 1:06:51 PM 
The strategy has been growth to stay important in state funding considerations and to keep the new construction dollars flowing.

Admissions are supply and demand driven. Foreign students out of the equation is going to reduce demand at all the public schools, opening more spots in-state. Miami has relied on big demand in foreign students and out-of-state applicants which should dry up.

OSU tried to grow its traditional freshman class size this past decade. With more in-state slots they might have to chase less competitive students and snowball back down the rankings.

The pandemic could force them into equilibrium with Ohio's admissions.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/29/2020 8:13:05 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
The strategy has been growth to stay important in state funding considerations and to keep the new construction dollars flowing.

Admissions are supply and demand driven. Foreign students out of the equation is going to reduce demand at all the public schools, opening more spots in-state. Miami has relied on big demand in foreign students and out-of-state applicants which should dry up.

OSU tried to grow its traditional freshman class size this past decade. With more in-state slots they might have to chase less competitive students and snowball back down the rankings.

The pandemic could force them into equilibrium with Ohio's admissions.


To pick up on Billy's post, are you buying your brownies in Corning or Middleport?
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/30/2020 8:46:21 AM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
The strategy has been growth to stay important in state funding considerations and to keep the new construction dollars flowing.

Admissions are supply and demand driven. Foreign students out of the equation is going to reduce demand at all the public schools, opening more spots in-state. Miami has relied on big demand in foreign students and out-of-state applicants which should dry up.

OSU tried to grow its traditional freshman class size this past decade. With more in-state slots they might have to chase less competitive students and snowball back down the rankings.

The pandemic could force them into equilibrium with Ohio's admissions.


OSU grew their freshman classes by about a thousand in recent years to almost 8000, and they did it without dropping in quality. Avereage SAT/ACT just grew more slowly than it had been previously, but it's still in the top 10 for public universities. As I've argued here before, OSU is literally stockpiling high quality Ohio kids while the rest of the system (except perhaps UC and Fiami) are facing severe enrollment shortages. People need to stop clinging to the fantasy that OSU is ever going to be in equilibrium in admissions or rankings or endowment or research or anything else with Ohio or Miami or Cincinnati or any other Ohio public. Instead, make some kind of deal with them to cap their freshman classes at a certain number and free up a thousand or more good quality kids for the rest of the schools which desperately need them.
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