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Topic:  US Colleges losing Asian students

Topic:  US Colleges losing Asian students
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/28/2020 7:56:38 AM 
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-08-27/u-s-co...

Article also has comments by students.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/28/2020 12:12:14 PM 
Are we GREAT yet?
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/28/2020 1:16:23 PM 
Part of "America First." Makes for more openings in US colleges for American kids who can't afford it or who aren't interested.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/28/2020 3:49:21 PM 
I know what you mean. I thought about opening up a restaurant for people who aren't interested.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/28/2020 7:06:56 PM 
Anything that takes more kids that can't afford college and redirects them from the affordable community college path to a lifetime of college debt certainly must be viewed as putting them first.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/29/2020 9:22:47 PM 
I suspect Covid is just a convenient excuse. If American Universities were providing good value for their cost, they would still attract students.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/30/2020 10:53:29 AM 
L.C. wrote:
I suspect Covid is just a convenient excuse. If American Universities were providing good value for their cost, they would still attract students.


The fact that the US has effectively shut down the visa program and that the prospects of international students being able to find work sponsorship after graduating has become a large unknown under Trump is a much bigger factor than Covid. Not to mention that the economy and job market are quite bad right now.

Last Edited: 8/30/2020 11:42:05 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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The Optimist
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Location: CLE
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/30/2020 1:53:09 PM 
Great to see more opportunity for underprivileged students from Appalachia and urban areas in this state to attend Ohio University.

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/30/2020 2:33:11 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
Great to see more opportunity for underprivileged students from Appalachia and urban areas in this state to attend Ohio University.


Foreign students tended to pay the full sticker price. Without that revenue, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's actually net fewer opportunities for underprivileged students.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 8/31/2020 10:07:35 PM 

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this chart, but it looks plausible:

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/1/2020 10:01:56 AM 
giacomo wrote:
I know what you mean. I thought about opening up a restaurant for people who aren't interested.


"Vive L'Indifference"?

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/3/2020 11:04:42 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Great to see more opportunity for underprivileged students from Appalachia and urban areas in this state to attend Ohio University.


Foreign students tended to pay the full sticker price. Without that revenue, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's actually net fewer opportunities for underprivileged students.


Nah we just need to fire a bunch of administrators.

I’d start with Jenny Hall-Jones. Whatever she is getting paid is too much

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/3/2020 11:11:46 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Great to see more opportunity for underprivileged students from Appalachia and urban areas in this state to attend Ohio University.


Foreign students tended to pay the full sticker price. Without that revenue, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's actually net fewer opportunities for underprivileged students.


Nah we just need to fire a bunch of administrators.

I’d start with Jenny Hall-Jones. Whatever she is getting paid is too much


Yep, certainly no administration necessary when it comes to attracting and sponsoring foreign students. Easy.



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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/5/2020 9:40:58 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Great to see more opportunity for underprivileged students from Appalachia and urban areas in this state to attend Ohio University.


Foreign students tended to pay the full sticker price. Without that revenue, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's actually net fewer opportunities for underprivileged students.


Nah we just need to fire a bunch of administrators.

I’d start with Jenny Hall-Jones. Whatever she is getting paid is too much


Yep, certainly no administration necessary when it comes to attracting and sponsoring foreign students. Easy.





Just write an algorithm. Administrators are obsolete

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/8/2020 5:56:25 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Great to see more opportunity for underprivileged students from Appalachia and urban areas in this state to attend Ohio University.


Foreign students tended to pay the full sticker price. Without that revenue, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's actually net fewer opportunities for underprivileged students.


Nah we just need to fire a bunch of administrators.

I’d start with Jenny Hall-Jones. Whatever she is getting paid is too much


Yep, certainly no administration necessary when it comes to attracting and sponsoring foreign students. Easy.





Just write an algorithm. Administrators are obsolete


I take it you've never actually been involved in a visa sponsorship? Algorithms and government bureaucracy don't work super well together.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/9/2020 12:24:22 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Great to see more opportunity for underprivileged students from Appalachia and urban areas in this state to attend Ohio University.


Foreign students tended to pay the full sticker price. Without that revenue, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's actually net fewer opportunities for underprivileged students.


Nah we just need to fire a bunch of administrators.

I’d start with Jenny Hall-Jones. Whatever she is getting paid is too much


Yep, certainly no administration necessary when it comes to attracting and sponsoring foreign students. Easy.





Just write an algorithm. Administrators are obsolete


I take it you've never actually been involved in a visa sponsorship? Algorithms and government bureaucracy don't work super well together.


Bureaucracy doesn't work well by itself. I'm not suggesting we add algorithms to bureaucracy. I'm suggesting we replace bureaucrats entirely. Jenny Hall-Jones is obsolete.

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Post Count: 3,593

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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/9/2020 12:30:12 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Great to see more opportunity for underprivileged students from Appalachia and urban areas in this state to attend Ohio University.


Foreign students tended to pay the full sticker price. Without that revenue, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's actually net fewer opportunities for underprivileged students.


Nah we just need to fire a bunch of administrators.

I’d start with Jenny Hall-Jones. Whatever she is getting paid is too much


Yep, certainly no administration necessary when it comes to attracting and sponsoring foreign students. Easy.





Just write an algorithm. Administrators are obsolete


I take it you've never actually been involved in a visa sponsorship? Algorithms and government bureaucracy don't work super well together.


Bureaucracy doesn't work well by itself. I'm not suggesting we add algorithms to bureaucracy. I'm suggesting we replace bureaucrats entirely. Jenny Hall-Jones is obsolete.


Removing Jenny Hall Jones from this equation does nothing to remove any relevant bureaucracy. Unless she works for the federal government and I'm unaware of it.

I mean, I get that it's fun to blame the face of the university's bureaucracy for all problems, but I assure you Jenny Hall Jones isn't responsible for the fact that American immigration policy is needlessly complex.

And in this case, administrators who are good at navigating that complexity generate revenue for the university. So I'm not sure I see them as a problem here.
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TheBobcatBandit
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/12/2020 2:25:39 PM 
I think the optimist makes a great point about administrators. It you look at LCs chart. LC btw thank you for all your post you’re the best at finding relevant data to any situation whether it be sports or covid or any random thing. Anyways if you look at the chart school cost has skyrocketed relative to inflation. Why is that? I think a point could be made that administrators are making too much money. Schools are going to start going out of business if it doesn’t change. Many degrees don’t provide the value equivalent to the cost and if the price doesn’t drop people will go elsewhere with their money. Maybe losing Asian students is sign that parents there don’t think their children are getting value equivalent to the cost. I took international business and mingled with many of the international students. They’re very smart and provide great value to the university.

Last Edited: 9/12/2020 2:34:14 PM by TheBobcatBandit
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L.C.
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Location: United States
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/12/2020 9:15:37 PM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
...if you look at the chart school cost has skyrocketed relative to inflation. Why is that? I think a point could be made that administrators are making too much money. Schools are going to start going out of business if it doesn’t change. Many degrees don’t provide the value equivalent to the cost and if the price doesn’t drop people will go elsewhere with their money. Maybe losing Asian students is sign that parents there don’t think their children are getting value equivalent to the cost. I took international business and mingled with many of the international students. They’re very smart and provide great value to the university.

That was my point. A University can only exist for so long as it is perceived as providing value. I'm not here to debate whether the reason for the rapidly rising cost of tuition and textbooks is Administration, Sports, Facilities, Faculty, research budgets, or whatever. My only question is, as the price goes up, are they delivering increased value? If not, Universities will begin to become unattractive to some, starting with the students for whom the cost is highest.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/13/2020 9:48:04 AM 
L.C. wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
...if you look at the chart school cost has skyrocketed relative to inflation. Why is that? I think a point could be made that administrators are making too much money. Schools are going to start going out of business if it doesn’t change. Many degrees don’t provide the value equivalent to the cost and if the price doesn’t drop people will go elsewhere with their money. Maybe losing Asian students is sign that parents there don’t think their children are getting value equivalent to the cost. I took international business and mingled with many of the international students. They’re very smart and provide great value to the university.

That was my point. A University can only exist for so long as it is perceived as providing value. I'm not here to debate whether the reason for the rapidly rising cost of tuition and textbooks is Administration, Sports, Facilities, Faculty, research budgets, or whatever. My only question is, as the price goes up, are they delivering increased value? If not, Universities will begin to become unattractive to some, starting with the students for whom the cost is highest.


Interesting that you brought up research budgets as I've always viewed them as bringing money into schools. The more I think about your point, though, the more I wonder if schools are engaging in a similar arms race in that regard as they are in sports. Are schools like Ohio lavishing money on building the infrastructure for attracting research money yet watching that money still inevitably flow almost exclusively to the AAU schools.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/13/2020 11:12:28 AM 
L.C. wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
...if you look at the chart school cost has skyrocketed relative to inflation. Why is that? I think a point could be made that administrators are making too much money. Schools are going to start going out of business if it doesn’t change. Many degrees don’t provide the value equivalent to the cost and if the price doesn’t drop people will go elsewhere with their money. Maybe losing Asian students is sign that parents there don’t think their children are getting value equivalent to the cost. I took international business and mingled with many of the international students. They’re very smart and provide great value to the university.

That was my point. A University can only exist for so long as it is perceived as providing value. I'm not here to debate whether the reason for the rapidly rising cost of tuition and textbooks is Administration, Sports, Facilities, Faculty, research budgets, or whatever. My only question is, as the price goes up, are they delivering increased value? If not, Universities will begin to become unattractive to some, starting with the students for whom the cost is highest.


In the linked article, only one student even references cost at all -- and that's a student who is attending Wharton and states pretty clearly that the reason for her deferral is remote learning, as it cuts into the networking benefit of attending such a program.

Otherwise, I'm not sure I'm seeing any evidence that it's cost that's caused this. Costs were just as high a year ago -- why the sudden decline in enrollments? It seems like there are more obvious explanations.

I suppose it's possible that this is the year we reached the tipping point cost-wise. But it seems much more likely that our poor handling of the pandemic and changes to immigration policy were bigger factors. Remember that a couple of months ago the Trump admin announced they wouldn't let foreign students on visas stay in the US if their university happened to be remote. While that was overturned, that sort of instability certainly isn't an attractive feature.

Last Edited: 9/13/2020 11:22:45 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/13/2020 11:32:10 AM 
OUPride wrote:
L.C. wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
...if you look at the chart school cost has skyrocketed relative to inflation. Why is that? I think a point could be made that administrators are making too much money. Schools are going to start going out of business if it doesn’t change. Many degrees don’t provide the value equivalent to the cost and if the price doesn’t drop people will go elsewhere with their money. Maybe losing Asian students is sign that parents there don’t think their children are getting value equivalent to the cost. I took international business and mingled with many of the international students. They’re very smart and provide great value to the university.

That was my point. A University can only exist for so long as it is perceived as providing value. I'm not here to debate whether the reason for the rapidly rising cost of tuition and textbooks is Administration, Sports, Facilities, Faculty, research budgets, or whatever. My only question is, as the price goes up, are they delivering increased value? If not, Universities will begin to become unattractive to some, starting with the students for whom the cost is highest.


Interesting that you brought up research budgets as I've always viewed them as bringing money into schools. The more I think about your point, though, the more I wonder if schools are engaging in a similar arms race in that regard as they are in sports. Are schools like Ohio lavishing money on building the infrastructure for attracting research money yet watching that money still inevitably flow almost exclusively to the AAU schools.


Definitely an arms race. And colleges have basically been able to get away with charging whatever they want because lenders have so much of their student loans underwritten by the federal government. Universities could basically spend what they wanted and recoup it in student fees, which were covered by lenders, which were then underwritten (and basically un-dischargable) by the federal government.

So when a school wants to build a new student center, or upgrade their cafeteria, or build a new student athletic center, or whatever, it's easy to do so and tuition can easily be increased. Because what's the difference? Nobody actually pays out of pocket anyhow, and the cost is subsidized in a hundred different ways. And then once one school builds a shiny, new gym for students, schools that compete with them feel compelled to do the same. And so on until college suddenly costs 60k a year.

It's a truly broken system.
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Terry Lee
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/13/2020 12:10:43 PM 
With State run Universities, how much of the increase in tuition is a result of decrease in government subsidy?
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L.C.
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Location: United States
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/13/2020 3:57:13 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
In the linked article, only one student even references cost at all -- and that's a student who is attending Wharton and states pretty clearly that the reason for her deferral is remote learning, as it cuts into the networking benefit of attending such a program.

Otherwise, I'm not sure I'm seeing any evidence that it's cost that's caused this. Costs were just as high a year ago -- why the sudden decline in enrollments? It seems like there are more obvious explanations.

I suppose it's possible that this is the year we reached the tipping point cost-wise. But it seems much more likely that our poor handling of the pandemic and changes to immigration policy were bigger factors. Remember that a couple of months ago the Trump admin announced they wouldn't let foreign students on visas stay in the US if their university happened to be remote. While that was overturned, that sort of instability certainly isn't an attractive feature.

I wasn't saying that cost was the specific cost. Rather, as costs rise, if value delivered doesn't keep pace, eventually you run into problems. Yes, Covid, and our poor response to it, is the direct cause. But, if US Universities were a superb value, people would be more willing to overcome the problems of Covid.

A good question is, once Covid is out of the picture, will things return to "normal"? Will foreign student numbers return to what they were? I would suggest that they will not. I believe that Covid did not change the world, but what it did do was accelerate changes already underway. People didn't just start shopping online, but now they do a lot more. People didn't just start working from home, but now they do a lot more. Post Covid, things will move back a bit towards the old way, but not all the way back. There will be far more online shopping in 2021 than 2019, and far more people working from home in 2021 than 2019. Similarly, I expect more foreign students in 2021 than this year, but less than 2019.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: US Colleges losing Asian students
   Posted: 9/13/2020 7:38:22 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
In the linked article, only one student even references cost at all -- and that's a student who is attending Wharton and states pretty clearly that the reason for her deferral is remote learning, as it cuts into the networking benefit of attending such a program.

Otherwise, I'm not sure I'm seeing any evidence that it's cost that's caused this. Costs were just as high a year ago -- why the sudden decline in enrollments? It seems like there are more obvious explanations.

I suppose it's possible that this is the year we reached the tipping point cost-wise. But it seems much more likely that our poor handling of the pandemic and changes to immigration policy were bigger factors. Remember that a couple of months ago the Trump admin announced they wouldn't let foreign students on visas stay in the US if their university happened to be remote. While that was overturned, that sort of instability certainly isn't an attractive feature.

I wasn't saying that cost was the specific cost. Rather, as costs rise, if value delivered doesn't keep pace, eventually you run into problems. Yes, Covid, and our poor response to it, is the direct cause. But, if US Universities were a superb value, people would be more willing to overcome the problems of Covid.

A good question is, once Covid is out of the picture, will things return to "normal"? Will foreign student numbers return to what they were? I would suggest that they will not. I believe that Covid did not change the world, but what it did do was accelerate changes already underway. People didn't just start shopping online, but now they do a lot more. People didn't just start working from home, but now they do a lot more. Post Covid, things will move back a bit towards the old way, but not all the way back. There will be far more online shopping in 2021 than 2019, and far more people working from home in 2021 than 2019. Similarly, I expect more foreign students in 2021 than this year, but less than 2019.



Foreign students come to the US for access to jobs and our economy. Unless our role as the leader of the global economy dies with Covid, I fully expect foreign students enrollment to return, given leadership that sees the value in such.
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